GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

[Ziero]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Well, as I said much earlier in the thread, we'll probably never know. The fact is, the PS2 is here now. It's a part of our reality, and complaining about it isn't going to do anyone much good so long as the bulk of the playerbase (at least in Japan) is still using it.
That obviously wasn't directed at you, because you're not making that claim. Just to be crystal clear.

Actually, the very fact that *MOST FFXI PLAYERS USE THE PS2* sort of proves just how important the system actually is to the popularity of FFXI. It seems that one little tidbit of info gets ignored by the 'they never should have used the PS2' people quite often. PC's aren't as popular in japan as they are here, especially multi-pc households. But the PS2, along with PlayOnline and the HDD were far more popular and useful over there.

But moreso, one of the most important reasons why FFXI became as popular as it is was because it was able to be played on multiple consoles while still being intergrated into 'one' world. It gave people options, and options help increase one's ability to play and enjoy a game. And as can be seen from the interview that was posted, they seem to want to repeat this success and improve upon it by creating another multi-system MMORPG but doing it so it doesn't rely on one system over the others.

p.s. Just so there's no confusion or e-drama about it, the reason I bolded and capped my statement is because it's a fact(i.e. something that can and has been proved numerically) that seems to be highly ignored (aka: hasn't been mentioned despite the argument over it's importance). It proves this 'we don't know how good FFXI would have done without PS2' concept to be inaccurate because the PS2 is the main system used to play this game.

[Feba]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

I love how people think that associating their anger at the outdatedness of the PS2 platform with their happiness at the 360 platform thinks I'm saying that console support is horrible.

my point is that basing the game off the console is a bad idea, NOT supporting that console. Supporting a platform that can be varied much easier is a much better idea, and then porting to less capable consoles after that. I see no reason that the DS cannot run FFXI, it's just a matter of porting (technically, remaking most of the game, but that's the point)

[Murphie]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Actually, the very fact that *MOST FFXI PLAYERS USE THE PS2* sort of proves just how important the system actually is to the popularity of FFXI. It seems that one little tidbit of info gets ignored by the 'they never should have used the PS2' people quite often. PC's aren't as popular in japan as they are here, especially multi-pc households. But the PS2, along with PlayOnline and the HDD were far more popular and useful over there.

But moreso, one of the most important reasons why FFXI became as popular as it is was because it was able to be played on multiple consoles while still being intergrated into 'one' world. It gave people options, and options help increase one's ability to play and enjoy a game. And as can be seen from the interview that was posted, they seem to want to repeat this success and improve upon it by creating another multi-system MMORPG but doing it so it doesn't rely on one system over the others.

p.s. Just so there's no confusion or e-drama about it, the reason I bolded and capped my statement is because it's a fact(i.e. something that can and has been proved numerically) that seems to be highly ignored (aka: hasn't been mentioned despite the argument over it's importance). It proves this 'we don't know how good FFXI would have done without PS2' concept to be inaccurate because the PS2 is the main system used to play this game.

Did you even read the post you just quoted of mine? I essentially said that the PS2 is here to stay, because the bulk of the JP playerbase uses it. I mean, for crying out loud.

And how on earth is it inaccurate to say that we don't know how well FFXI would have done without the PS2? We don't! We have no way of knowing, because it did come out on the PS2. We can only speculate! Which is exactly what I said.

I don't see how I could make my statements any clearer.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Hmm. I don't know if most FFXI players are on PS2 still, but PS2 users should be a very large portion of the current population. (Most people tend to stick with something until it breaks; all the people in my LS who started on PS2 are still on PS2, except for one, for example.) If I have to guess, I would say 40% to 50% of the user base are on PS2.

It is shockingly true about low penetration of PCs in Japan, though. I was flabbergasted when a friend who recently returned from Japan stated almost nonchalantly that most people there do not have computers at home. Of those who do, when I probed further, she says people who own computer tend not use them very much.

Heck, government offices barely use computers--it's all paper, all the time. (You better know how to write those complicated kanji if you want to live in Japan. heh.)

The funny thing is, getting broadband connection in Japan is so easy; just call up the ISP in the morning, and it'll start working in the afternoon, or something like that. That friend who recently return to California has been waiting close to a month for her DSL to work here...

[Mhurron]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Basing the game on a console is a better idea then the ethereal idea of a PC.

A consoles abilities are locked in stone, they can't get better and they can't get worse. If you're going to support a console, it makes sense that it is your reference platform.

[Mhurron]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Hmm. I don't know if most FFXI players are on PS2 still, but PS2 users should be a very large portion of the current population. (Most people tend to stick with something until it breaks; all the people in my LS who started on PS2 are still on PS2, except for one, for example.) If I have to guess, I would say 40% to 50% of the user base are on PS2.
It is shockingly true about low penetration of PCs in Japan, though. I was flabbergasted when a friend who recently returned from Japan stated almost nonchalantly that most people there do not have computers at home. Of those who do, when I probed further, she says people who own computer tend not use them very much.
Heck, government offices barely use computers--it's all paper, all the time. (You better know how to write those complicated kanji if you want to live in Japan. heh.)
The funny thing is, getting broadband connection in Japan is so easy; just call up the ISP in the morning, and it'll start working in the afternoon, or something like that. That friend who recently return to California has been waiting close to a month for her DSL to work here...

Don't forget that until Windows 2000 and some releases of the MacOS, multibyte character support sucked complete ass. It has been easier to do things electronically in ideograph based languages for less time then it was in character based languages. Compared to ease of use for data entry of a computer over paper, most eastern countries are at the same point the US was in the 70's or 80's.

Hell, Japan had to create Romanji to use the telegraph at all.

[Feba]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Hell, Japan had to create Romanji to use the telegraph at all.

For some reason, I think you're wrong.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

I see no reason that the DS cannot run FFXI, it's just a matter of porting (technically, remaking most of the game, but that's the point)

I doubt that; PS2 has 32MB RAM, DS has 4MB RAM (14MB if counting RAM expansion pack). If S-E is complaining about PS2's memory, DS would be out of the question for all practical purposes. Which USB is DS using, anyway? 1.1 or 2.0? Loading large amount of data from a HD connected via USB 1.1 wouldbe a torture.

You can make an FFXI like game for the DS, but you can't get a program to run on DS which can function as a proper FFXI client.

[Feba]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

which is exactly what I was saying. There's nothing in FFXI that COULDN'T be handled by the DS, it would just be a matter of making a version of FFXI for DS.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

You misunderstood me, Feba. FFXI cannot be done on DS.

What I mean by "an FFXI like game" is "MMORPG". You can make an MMORPG for DS, even one which shares some model/texture/music with FFXI, of course--just not one with the kind of demand for RAM resources on the level of FFXI.

FFXI client needs certain data in memory, and DS cannot provide that memory. It's also questionable if DS' USB is capable of handling the bandwidth needed for acceptable performance for what FFXI needs.

[Feba]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Which is like saying "My PC has 256MB of RAM, and it runs FFXI like crap. How can the PS2 run it with just 32? Bullshit!"

Just because it would need adapting wouldn't mean it wouldn't be FFXI.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

You're entitled to your opinions, Feba, but S-E has stated multiple times certain additional features for FFXI are not possible due to lack of RAM on PS2. Asking to go from 32MB to 4MB/14MB is a drastic downsizing.

Anyway, I don't see S-E targeting DS as the next FFXI platform. Something like PSP v.2 would make more sense (if Sony makes one), in the distant future, after S-E ports White Engine to it, and after S-E ports FFXI to White Engine (if ever).

[Feba]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

Exactly, because they're working with FFXI as a PS2 game.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

lol. Total derail, but I'm not sure you know what "exactly" means.

* * *

It's not about dealing with it as a PS2 game or not. Think of it as a problem of having the clients in the same state (or the equivalent state) across all platform--at least, to the users' eyes.

Now, certain things can be "unequal" without any real issue, like UI, higher resolution textures, etc. Others, such as having similar looking models and texture for characters and environment/zone, access to inventory and storage, etc., can't be fudged. If you don't have those, you don't have "FFXI".

"State" is data. If you can't fit all the data which makes up the (equivalent) state, you don't have the same game. If S-E has trouble fitting data into PS2 to maintain the PS2 client as the equivalent of the PC version, it most likely would find it impossible to do that on a 4MB Nintendo DS.

Porting an multi-platform MMORPG client is not like porting a single player game, where you can simplify/partition stages, remove a number of enemies, change models entirely to port a game from a more capable platform to a more limited one. You can't limit a FFXI player's inventory to 16, display all player models using RSE only, partition East Sarutabuta into three zones, and still call that a real FFXI client for DS.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: GDC 2007 Keynote speech: Hiromichi Tanaka

PCs are nice in that they can get upgraded and be improved over time, but unless you personally build a PC that is dedicated to being a game machine and much less toward multitasking, you're only asking for problems. PCs are for multitasking simpler things.

Consoles are typically dedicated to games only. The systems are built and resources geared toward that one function, making them superior for that function. Games or movie/music playback are the central function of a console. They are not dedicated to web browsing, graphic design or letting you balance your checkbooks. We get some web browsing now, but its still much more practical to to my PC than my Nintendo DS, PSP or PS3 to look at a forum or whatever.

As such, its a much less glitchy experience and with online games, connection issues are fewer since no other resources are tapping into the system's online connection. When I redball on FFXI, its my connection and it is extremely rare when it happens because my PS2 is not tapping anything other than being an online game. Redballs are much more common with my friends on PC because each time they zone, resources within the PC are getting spread too thin. They have windower running and they're watching YouTube and trying to talk on Skype and shit.

I have to laugh when they blame SE for the redballing.