What the hell is wrong with Melee?

[Vyuru]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I've actually never taken my DRG to a ToA PT yet, I don't know if I want to. After stuggling with it through the RoZ/CoP days to 60, I almost feel like I'd have it too easy now.

In all honesty ~Kitten, I'd say don't go.

ToAU camps are great, so long as there aren't a bunch of parties there, and more and more these days you see people in parties who really should have moved on to another exp site using the lower ones as massive TP burns, kill everything in sight to make exp kind of a thing going on.

A few nights ago for instance, 3 or 4 parties in the Mire, already making it more than crowded but still managable, then 4 more parties show up, one of them being a lvl 75 with merits party that just killed everything in it's path, pulling 4 mobs at a time and just, yeah, killed the exp for everyone else wherever they went, and they roamed up front all the way to the back area then went back and forth.

Your dragoon is 60? I'd honestly say to just exp in Bibiki Bay, it's just a nice place to exp in that is normally empty, so if you get a nice party that doesn't need any downtime you can get a surprisingly large amount of exp there.

And I must say WishMaster3K, I'm surprised. Penta Thrust and Blade: Jin are commonly used WS, it'd be totally trivial to make a SC with those. I can actually close CS now for 300-600 SC damage fairly consistently, on non Qutrub mobs, I am HAPPY, that's alot of extra damage for very little coordination.

I know a COR who now subs WAR to merit PTs, creating a clear deficit in his accuracy and he uses Hunter's Roll to make up for it, but he won't let you argue that he could just sub RNG and Roll something more useful to melees.

The joys of being party leader when a support job is doing something *that* obviously stupid is to make it clear to them that they either shape up or get replaced, possibly by a NPC fellow >.>

The EXP levels, missions and endgame are what truely determine the true potentials of a job, not just merit PTs.

While this is true, I think there are some things in merits that are just way too cool and really add to your job. I would say that merit PTs add to your job's potential, but I for sure wouldn't act like merits are *the* endgame, or what makes the endgame jobs, because the real endgame is so varied and almost constantly changing every year, or every other year depending on updates and expansions.

EDIT:

I forgot to add, for a very long time now I have not been able to get people in my parties to do SC with me. Now for some mobs like Colibri I can understand this, you don't wany to get a Feather Tickle while waiting for someone else to get TP, for mobs like Imps however? Boohoohoo, everyone just got Amnesia with the Imp at 70% hp, it normally wears off at the same time for people, and since it tends to stick for awhile, EVERY melee will be at 100%+TP, making it damn trivial and easy to perform a SC that takes out the Imp, yet no one EVER does this. It's always, spam the WS this, spam the WS that.

What I've wound up doing thanks to drg/sam is close SC with other people now. Ninja does a Blade: Jin? I use Penta Thrust. Samurai uses Tachi: Gekko? I use Wheeling Thrust. If I know what closes the SC, I will use that WS. Thankfully Penta Thrust, Skewer, and Wheeling Thrust cover just about all of the commonly used WS of the jobs I commonly party with.

[Dymlos]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I honestly hope when Wings comes out, S-E will pimp slap everyone in the face, forcing them to use OMG Skillchains! I love SC'ing and I do it whenever I get the chance to, especially since that extra x damage could be enough to kill the mobs and OMG which means faster XP!

Holy crap, it's as if SC are suppose to be awesome and beneficial, rather than waste of time! omgomgomg!! (sarcasm people ^^ )

[Legal Fish]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

The great problem with SCs:

1. Weak WSes.

This has pretty much been solved though, in the recent update. So yay.

2. Magic Accuracy

SCs are resisted way too often, even on weaker opponents

3. MBs not THAT special in Exp situation.

BLMs generate too much hate and can't keep up with MP. This basically makes MBs extinct because no one has a BLM in their party to begin with. If they do, they are better off not SCing for the reason above anyway.


Simple solutions? Well number 1 is much less of a problem these days.

2... In VT/IT situation, if players were assured 1/2 damage mirror most of the time and full mirrors not being extremely rare, that would be enough.

3. MBs should really cater to those who do them. I say for BLM, enmity is huge penalty(more damage = more death). I would give BLM a level 25 or 30 trait that gives them a huge enmity- bonus on MB'd spells(and /BLM at level 50 or 60 can benefit). As for the system itself, 50% to 75% off the spell's cost should be enough to solve endurance problems.

[tdh]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

The great problem with SCs:
1. Weak WSes.
This has pretty much been solved though, in the recent update. So yay.
2. Magic Accuracy
SCs are resisted way too often, even on weaker opponents

SOME of the WS's have been fixed. There are still those out there that are stuck using crappy WS in order to cater to a Skillchain. Before the advent of TP Burns MNK got the shaft because everybody wanted them to use Raging Fists but no way they could do Distortion with it. It's sad that a T mob hits hit for a combined 2600 WS damage, but Light does 145dmg. Try the same thing on an EP to EM mob and you get a mirrored Light that's retarded over kill.

3. MBs not THAT special in Exp situation.

BLMs generate too much hate and can't keep up with MP. This basically makes MBs extinct because no one has a BLM in their party to begin with. If they do, they are better off not SCing for the reason above anyway.

Part of the reason why BLMs aren't in parties any more is partly their fault. They refused to work with the group in the hate system - resulting in no MP, or decided they would dictate when/where things would happen and nobody wanted the hassle. Couple that with everybody wanted one for the Skillchain, and kill damage, there weren't enough of them to invite.

Simple solutions? Well number 1 is much less of a problem these days.

3. MBs should really cater to those who do them. I say for BLM, enmity is huge penalty(more damage = more death). I would give BLM a level 25 or 30 trait that gives them a huge enmity- bonus on MB'd spells(and /BLM at level 50 or 60 can benefit). As for the system itself, 50% to 75% off the spell's cost should be enough to solve endurance problems.[/QUOTE]Honestly with a BLM that has even a slight resemblance of competency, hate and MP aren't so much an issue. Problem is so many BLMs are stuck in Manaburn mode so they cast one of their biggest spells at the start of the fight. Get excited that they're not getting face humped, so "let's cast another one." By the time the Skillchain comes around, they have accumulated enough hate to die.

Before the Burn mentality took over and created, to take a page from W3k's book, Burn~tards, I found a number of BLMs that new how to walk the hate line. Drop a nuke here, enfeeble, and then toss out a huge MB to kill the mob. Some where or how those skill sets completely disappeared.

Now I won't lie, your idea about Enmity job trait would be very helpful, but I think Skillchain damage needs to be adjusted first. I know it's beating a dead horse, but if Skillchain damage did even 25% of closing WS more people would use them. There's just no incentive to have the RDM MB in those Burn parties, or invite a BLM.

Another idea would be to move some of the WS's on the chart moved around to work out better. Mistral Axe vs. Rampage comes to mind, but also getting rid of the combos that involve the speed TP builders with high delay two handers. Mistral Axe to Spinning Slash pre Abs-TP, or Vorpal Suck to Dancing Edge. The WAR & THF are waiting decades for the DRK to build TP.

Maybe some of the WS being shuffled around on the chart to allow for more combinations, or to fit fast TP gainers with others, and couple more 2 handed weapons in good Skillchain combos so one person isn't waiting.

[Taskmage]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

On a slight tangent, y'know what'd be neat? A thf-like sub that mages could use to allow them to manipulate enmity with thier spells. If a blm could TA an MB for example that would be awesome.

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

That would be pretty cool...


The first order of business is definitely to fix the resist rates on skill chains, especially level 3.

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

That would be pretty cool...
The first order of business is definitely to fix the resist rates on skill chains, especially level 3.

They already have it. A thief SATAing Shark Bite.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

On a slight tangent, y'know what'd be neat? A thf-like sub that mages could use to allow them to manipulate enmity with thier spells. If a blm could TA an MB for example that would be awesome.

While that would be nice, it would run in to the same problem Thief currently has. Namely, its sub-job-ability would overshadow its potential as a Main job.

Of course, I am not a Thief, so I could be completely wrong. The previous sentence was an anti-inflammatory disclaimer.

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

not if you can't use it with /BLM

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

not if you can't use it with /BLM

. . . What? I meant that the job's usefulness would be limited as a sub-job for Mages, not as stuck as being forced to sub /BLM.

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

I'm guessing what Yellow Mage's point is that the MB-SA/TA trait/ability would be broken like sam/thf > thf main, and only leveled to be a sub.

[Taskmage]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Depends on what else the job did and what it got after level 37. Rdm is a useful subjob to pld, blm and blu, for different reasons in different contexts, and still retains its usefulness and identity as a main job.

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Depends on what else the job did and what it got after level 37. Rdm is a useful subjob to pld, blm and blu, for different reasons in different contexts, and still retains its usefulness and identity as a main job.

True. But, most jobs here loose their identity because of what makes them them, is subable, or anything that can be a cheap subistitute...

[Malacite]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Then you have jobs with no identity without a sub job - _ -


SMN, PLD, and to a lesser extent NIN. Really sick of having some jobs entirely reliant on their sub to perform their intended roles (or in SMN's case, lack thereof)

[Akashimo]

Re: What the hell is wrong with Melee?

Then you have jobs with no identity without a sub job - _ -
SMN, PLD, and to a lesser extent NIN. Really sick of having some jobs entirely reliant on their sub to perform their intended roles (or in SMN's case, lack thereof)

I beg to differ on nin and smn in minor details.

Smn, brings avatars, mages of heracy.
Without a sub, exactly what they are really. With, they get halfed versions of that subs abilities to boost either support or lesser extent DDing with staff/club. Really, in terms of what it is compared to how its played, Smn has its ID. Just people distort it ; ;.... unless you like soro with avatars ;o

Ninja using art of stealth and ninjutsu.
A ninja's sub really doesn't affect its performence that much other than its role of either puller, dd or tank. Even to stretch it soloer.
But, main focus, katana weaponskills and using ninjutsu. Ninjas can easily tank using ninjutsu alone to build up fast, spiked hate by spinning the wheel and stealthy debuff the opponeting with the remaining spells. Though, compared to what they are now. Wanna be wars using haubys and Jin spamming.

Paladin, pretty much needs is sub, at least pre 75 to hold on to hate. v.v;