Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

[Malacite]

I've been thinking about it a lot lately and so now I feel the need to make a thread.

SE screwed up with the category 2 merits. Big time. Some of the jobs got off pretty well, while the others got royally shafted IMO. So, I've got a few reforms in mind, along with what I think would have made more sense.


First off is the system itself and the usage of points. The whole idea behind merits is to customize your jobs a little bit, giving them a power boost as you see fit rather than increasing the level cap. That's all fine and dandy, except that SE made it way too hard to experiment with.


Put bluntly, merit points really should be refunded whenever you take some away from a category. At least partially, if not in full (e.g. you spent 4 on one upgrade, you should at least get 1 back, if not the full 4). In the case where the amount returned would exceed the 10 point limit, you would be unable to undo the merit until you spent some points. Either that, or they could increase the limit.

Now I have thought about this, and yes you could in theory take off all the merits from a fully merited job and then spend them on another one, thus avoiding the need to merit any more. Some people probably would do this, but I don't think it would really be as widespread as SE may fear.

It's not going to hurt their subscriptions. It's a stupid time sink, and if they changed it I'm confident that the crowding of merit camps would lessen.



Now on to the main point. It's my opinion that SE has effectively shot themselves in the foot by making certain spells merit abilities. This prevents higher tier spells from being released (Bio and Dia for example go up to lv 5) and screws over some jobs from being implemented (RDM has Slow II, which would be essential to Time Mage if it were ever created)

A good number of the spells are lackluster (Protectra/Shellra V) or shouldn't have been given to the job (RDM doesn't learn Bio or Bio II, so why the hell did it get Bio III?) The merited blood pacts are a waste too. They should have just been all level 75, and SMN along with the other mages should have just gotten the same 2 JA and 2 JT.


Here are my ideas, starting with NIN.


The SAN wheel really should have been made into BCNM (maybe HNM?) drops and set to lv 65 or 70. Rather than the 2.5 second cast time, they really should have been 0.5 with a recast of 1.5 - 2 minutes and made a bit stronger. With a 2 minute recast, NIN/BLM's would be able to dish out a hefty chunk of damage, while not being able to spam it as quickly as the Ni Wheel.

A recycle trait for Shuriken would have been great too. Just give it a good % of not using up the shuriken (they're hard enough to get as it is)

As for the second JT, I really can't think of much. Some kind of JA that combines a ninja tool with a shuriken similar to Quick Draw would be neat...


Basically, the category 2 merits would open the floor for more NIN's to make use of shuriken and ninjutsu instead of focusing on Dual Wield and tanking. They're supposed to be killing machines according to SE, so let's get serious.



Next up is RDM.

Bio 3 shouldn't have been given to RDM. It's a BLM/DRK spell and should have been made into a scroll for them. Dia 3 would have been better around level 60/61 (following the trend with Dia and Dia 2) Can't really say what levels the others should have been.

Other than Enfeebling Seal (increase the potency of next enfeeble) I can't really think of much here. Actually, I'm gonna stop bringing up new JA's altogether for now save Runic (for PLD) since I'm mainly pissed at the spells.

Which brings me to WHM. Why couldn't they have gotten something like Holy 2, Haste 2, Regen 4? Something remotely usefully anyway. Shellra V I've heard is ok (better than protect) but still seems like a waste to me.


SMN could have gotten enmity merits for avatars or something... from what I hear, no one really uses the merit pacts anyway.

About the only ones they got sorta right were BLM's Tier 2 Ancient Magic. The only reason I say this is because they all cost the same MP and do the same damage which is how the elemental nukes should have all been done in the first place.


I have other things I want to do so that's it for now.

[Raydeus]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

I asked for the same (Long time) ago, it's ok if you couldn't move merits around to other categories, but you should be able to move merit points around within the same category so you don't have to waste merits trying to find out what works the best for you.

Take the Others category as an example:

Emnity increase
Emnity decrease
Critical hit rate
Enemy critical hit rate
Spell interruption

This is a good example of what a waste of merits can be, if you level a DD job (with not much of a defense) then you'd want to decrease Emnity. But, if you also wanted to play a tank job with the same character then you'd have to dump all those merits so they wouldn't have an adverse affect on your tanking (and even worse if you wanted to Increase your Emnity for it).

So, without a way to swap merits from a stat to the other (within the same category) you are better off not using merits at all on certain categories if you have jobs with different roles that could conflict with each other.

That's just wrong.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

So, without a way to swap merits from a stat to the other (within the same category) you are better off not using merits at all on certain categories if you have jobs with different roles that could conflict with each other.

That's just wrong.

I think S-E would rather you level up an alternate character if you wish to play "conflicting roles", so you can merit them differently, as dictated by need or personal preference.

There's something inherently broken about a character which can do everything in a game which stresses cooperation.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

No DD that levels a tank merits enmity +/- that I know of. Most go right for critical hit rate and leave the category alone after that.

The FFXI job system is about flexibility, Merits and aquiring endgame gear are about specializing your character (hence most of it being R/E). Some people just never get that hint.

[Raydeus]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

I think S-E would rather you level up an alternate character if you wish to play "conflicting roles", so you can merit them differently, as dictated by need or personal preference.

There's something inherently broken about a character which can do everything in a game which stresses cooperation.

Nah, that could apply to most MMOGs but not XI, because of all the time and effort it takes to level a character having to level another just so your merits don't conflict is contradictory to say the least.

If that was the case then skill levels wouldn't be cross-job like they are since job rating is what determines their highest lvl at any given time. And besides, a character alone can't do everything even if he/she has all 18 jobs at 75 with full merits.

This is XI we are talking about here.

[silentsteel]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

What could happen with the removal of merits, is that yes, it gives back full merits, but you can only do so once a day/week so that it isn't abused.

And yes, some of the merit 2 need to be changed.

My two cents. =p

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

Pop Quiz, folks.

Which character should level PLD, BLU or RDM?

Tarutaru with singing, wind, staff, axe and lance merits?
Or Mithra with marksmanship, sword, archery and MP merits?

The answer really is that I could go either way, but the mithra is the sensible choice. The magic category is completely open for her and there's the sword and MP merits to boot.

The "problem" with the merit system is people level so many jobs on one character and want to max the potential of them all, but they've done so much that some of them end up marginal instead. Its also much to do with the inventory "problem." People want it all, but when you logged in, SE told you to have a life, please.

If you want to be a Tarutaru PLD, FFXI allows you that, but its at the expense of a lot of other things. Especially so if you want to be the best Taru PLD you can be.

[Raydeus]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

What could happen with the removal of merits, is that yes, it gives back full merits, but you can only do so once a day/week so that it isn't abused.

And yes, some of the merit 2 need to be changed.

My two cents. =p

I'd like to be able to tweak merits at anytime though. You can't really abuse the system unless being able to tweak your character for specific tasks is considered abusing.

As a RDM if you are gonna play Paralyze-RDM in a fight then you'd swap merits to Ice Acc and Paralyze II, then, if you gotta be chain stunner you'd just swap to Lightning Acc and Dark skill.

Either way you'll never be able to go beyond the category limits and you'd have to invest plenty of merits to get to higher increases like usual. This would only save you from dumping merits that you already earned just so you could change your merit setup.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

No offense, but a lot of this is lame.

Only really, really shitty merits should be removed/replaced. In my opinion there is just one: Scavenge recast, god that's lame.

Any current standing can simply be changed to better fit the game.

San ninjetsu is fine really... if you added "Enmity+" to additional merits it would work out great. The elemental wheel could also benefit from their Elemental resistance down duration increasing based on tier. The recast is also could use modification like you mentioned.

Protectra and Shellra 5 only issue is that unlike other merits, their strength increases so weakly compared to other spells, abilities, and traits. What they should of been is: Additional merits = 5 Def or -2% magic damage. They could have also been traits to effect also Protect IV and Shell IV, but that doesn't matter now.

RDM DO learn Bio I and Bio II. The only issue with Bio III(and I guess Dia III) is that their DoT increase is rather pathetic and could of been better(at least Bio III's DoT should increase with each merit). Bio III is also hurt by the new standard of Utsusemi.

SMN's magical BPs are an issue outside of merits. Keeping your avatar or spirits out doesn't provide enough benefits. Additional, Magical BPs rely on MBing.

BLM's AM II spells are not as great as you might imagine. Outside Manafont spam aiming for nuking once in the battle, you almost always better off with Thunder IV. They rely greatly on MBing once they have been merited further.


Now the complaints about merits being limited to people with multiple jobs. You've completely missed the point of merits. They are customization to make people different. You can't be the best at every job. It's like asking for all the mission reward earrings and rings.

Finally, Group II merits have one big problem. Feint aside, they were clearly intended to have a 5/10 limit like Group I. This makes most traits and spells much more useful, also makes timer of most abilities 5 or 10 mins.

[Malacite]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

Additional merits = 5 Def

Useless.

RDM DO learn Bio I and Bio II.

Okay, but BLM and DRK do get it much earlier and have more dark magic skill.

BLM's AM II spells are not as great as you might imagine.

I never said they were. I just said that SE got things right by giving them all the same base damage, as they should have done with all nukes.

San ninjetsu is fine really... if you added "Enmity+" to additional merits it would work out great. The elemental wheel could also benefit from their Elemental resistance down duration increasing based on tier. The recast is also could use modification like you mentioned.

Gonna have to disagree with you there. I've spoken to some NIN who have it and went /BLM. They weren't impressed. The casting times suck (2.5 cast, 60 recast) and don't do enough damage to really be worth it. The Ni wheel is still easier to spam for quick damage spikes. I'd really like it if NIN could get more mileage out of their ninjutsu and especially shuriken, to diversify the job instead of just focusing on dual-wield and melee damage.

The FFXI job system is about flexibility, Merits and aquiring endgame gear are about specializing your character (hence most of it being R/E). Some people just never get that hint.

I said about as much in my OP. I'm not blind you know.

But my point is it shouldn't be so damn arduous to experiment with merits. More to the point, what if someone fully merits say WHM. Then, 3 months later (or however long) they decide they really just don't want to play WHM anymore, but want to trick out DRK or RNG. Now they have to undo all that work, essentially wasting hours and hours of grinding in merit parties.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

I said about as much in my OP. I'm not blind you know.

Who said I was talking about you?

But my point is it shouldn't be so damn arduous to experiment with merits. More to the point, what if someone fully merits say WHM. Then, 3 months later (or however long) they decide they really just don't want to play WHM anymore, but want to trick out DRK or RNG. Now they have to undo all that work, essentially wasting hours and hours of grinding in merit parties.

FFXI is by far more generous with thier systems than some MMOs have been. Some MMOs still go by skill trees and once you make a choice, it can never be undone and you have to level another character if you wanted to specialize your character to something else. Here you don't have to go that route unless you want to.

At any rate if we could handle merits like you wanted to, then everyone would just merit five jobs - WAR, MNK, NIN, RDM and BRD - and hardly merit on the others.

Oh wait...

[Legal Fish]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

Useless.

And can you tell me why? It has nothing to do with the merit itself, it's a problem about the game's defense mechanic which should be fixed. And it would very useful in PvP at least.

[Armando]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

I don't know. Even if they fixed Defense (let's suppose mobs used the same formulas we did) 5 Defense at 75 is a drop in the bucket.

[Malacite]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

It has nothing to do with the merit itself, it's a problem about the game's defense mechanic which should be fixed.

That's exactly why it's useless. A drastic change to the def/vit system is required IMO, but that's not the subject here. Although it would be nice if the protect line of spells gave increasing amounts of defense (or damage reduction?) based on the tier and enhancing skill. This would really be a major boost to WHM and would seriously help to make their job easier.

Granted RDM's would be able to do this for the most part as well, but they'd be spending more MP and time.

At any rate if we could handle merits like you wanted to, then everyone would just merit five jobs - WAR, MNK, NIN, RDM and BRD - and hardly merit on the others.

Oh wait...

Tee hee. Ah but seriously I do think something should be done. I don't think it would get quite as bad as you make it out either. Some people do actually merit on other jobs for fun.

Hell I refuse to merit on WAR anymore for just that reason. I don't find it fun. Cast utsu, spampage, rinse lather repeat. yawn. (Not that merits are terribly exciting to begin with)

I like playing on SAM much better. Now if SE would just make skillchains worthwhile, I'd be having quite a bit of fun with my soboro.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Revamping the Merit System: What SE SHOULD have done.

If the merits became 5/10 limit, a fully merited spell would be Defense+80. I'd say it would be pretty decent. Protect is 10, Protect II is 25, Protect III is 40, and Protect IV is 55. It's 15 Defense increase per tier. This would be a 25 Defense increase. Even if the limit is forever stuck at 3/6(and I hope to god it isn't), it would make Protect V 15 Defense more than Protect IV which makes a lot more sense than 1 more defense per upgrade.

EDIT: It's very important to bring up. If that way of thought was correct, then jobs like PUP and DRG shouldn't even have received Group II.

On your method of boosting Defense spells, this does very little to fix the system itself.