What would you like to see in WoTG

[Richie]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

Level caps also allow lower level players to participate in missions without having to leech or just plain be left out completely. As far as muling goes, I really don't see a problem with it.

I agree with you completely. If everything is a 75 cap we're going to have a a Divine might situation (Divine Might {Do you need it?} BLM {can i have it?} Melee DD, lol yeah right don't even ask). Almost everyone on the server has a few jobs up to 50-60ish so it would be as much of a problem and we wouldn't have to worry about balancing the fights for the ridill warriors and the apocalypse drks with 95% haste (i know there aren't many of them but still).

[Raydeus]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

I wouldn't say this is necessarily true. Chains of Promathia expansion really brought out the true face of the majority of the FFXI community. CoP was loathed because of it's difficulty, but moreso because it was level capped, unlike Rise of the Zilart where you and a couple high level buddies can zerg to Sky in one day. This game is getting older, and therefore more people are getting their hands on rare abjuration gears.

What kind of challenges could SE add to the Wings Missions from the start that could stand up to Ridill Warriors, Black Belt Monks, etc.? Even if SE tweaked the missions to the point where even fully merited 75 players had trouble clearing them, they would just complain about its difficulty until it was toned down. What i'm really getting at, is that level caps are a safer alternative than having no restrictions at all.

We've gone through this topic many times before in these forum and my answer is still the same. Being lvl 30, 40 or 75 doesn't matter, you'll have overpowering gear and food at any level.

Players interested in challenge can always choose not to use the overpowering gear for the sake of it(challenge). But in the end it's every player's call what gear they are going to use, and there's nothing you can do to prevent them from using their best gear if they want to, regardless of level.

Level caps also allow lower level players to participate in missions without having to leech or just plain be left out completely. As far as muling goes, I really don't see a problem with it.

There's already loads of ways to store items already. I assume most people would have various level gear for their mains job lying around, which would be likely the jobs they would bring to the new missions.

While I agree (and have said it before) that level caps can potentially allow low level players to join on missions I doubt that was the case at all.

100% of the players I saw going through CoP had at least 1 job at 75 before even starting, specially since there weren't many xp camps in CoP areas. Most new players were way too busy with the already existing content to go through the process of getting CoP missions done.

And the "There's already loads of ways to store items already." text book answer doesn't work at all because not many people are willing to spend gil on buying a whole set of gear just for the sake of storage, it's a waste of gil and inventory space once you take the set out of it. So SE needs to add much better options for storing gear or at least make muling much more efficient if they are planning on adding level capped fights and more Ex gear/items.

The way things are right now even if you are willing to mule all the gear once while you are doing your missions chances are most people wont do it if they are helping other players.

That's why CoP was so difficult for many players, not only it was tough gear-wise since you have to either mule gear for hours for a single fight but doing it every time just to help others was too much to ask (time-wise).

To me the real difficulty of CoP weren't the missions themselves but getting enough capable people willing to help you go through them since just the muling alone would discourage many people who already had the missions completed, even if they wanted to help you.

Zilart doesn't require you to mule to help someone, all you needed to do is go to where that fight was and fight, without all the bothersome pre-battle process CoP requires.



Now, since I don't want to shot down the idea of level caps just because of shooting it down I'll give my opinion on what SE could do to help this lvl cap issue (for the sake of lower lvl players and others looking for challenge).

Optional level caps.

Just like you can apply a lvl cap for Assaults you should be able to add a lvl cap to missions, and all SE would needs to do is tweak the battlefield a bit for every lvl cap.

That way you wouldn't have to spoil it for lower lvl players who wanted to have a sense of actually fighting; rather than feeling like they just zoomed through a fight without actually enjoying it (like many people who get rushed through Zilart by a party of 75s do). If they had friends willing to go through the muling process that is.

Players who wanted challenge at lower lvls would be happy, players who wanted to use their best lvl 75 gear (or simply not bothering muling) would be happy, players who wanted to actually fight but are too low to actually fight on higher lvl fights would be happy etc. etc.

That's what I think is the answer that would please everyone.

And the most important thing about this is that everyone would have a choice, rather than being forced to fight missions in a specific way.


Edit > Of course, I think the minimum level for battlefields would depend on the missions themselves. Having a bunch of lvl 30 players beating Promathia wouldn't make much sense.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

We've gone through this topic many times before in these forum and my answer is still the same. Being lvl 30, 40 or 75 doesn't matter, you'll have overpowering gear and food at any level.

Players interested in challenge can always choose not to use the overpowering gear for the sake of it(challenge). But in the end it's every player's call what gear they are going to use, and there's nothing you can do to prevent them from using their best gear if they want to, regardless of level.

You keep making this same incredibily lame argument against level-capping because you don't want level-capping at all. "Just take of your good gear to make it challenging."

Handi-capping is a form of challenge. If SE wants to include low level players in missions, they'll force it on you whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you can just choose not to do the missions. FFXI still does have a large amount of low and intermediate players, so I question SE's need to make WotG strictly high-level.

I mean they're still going to make level capped BC/KS/IS/ENM-style stuff, so I don't see why they shouldn't do level capped missions, people will inevitably BCNM for something anyway

My only problem with Assault-style optional capping is that it might as well just been left with no capping option because no one wants to do 60 cap or 50 cap. They just want uncapped, which leaves the intermediate player shit out of luck until 75.

[Raydeus]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

And you keep trying to force players to play your way and only your way.

If players use or don't use the lvl cap option is not your problem, what matters is that everyone has options so they enjoy the time they spend playing XI; without having to meet your very personal criteria of what is challenging and what isn't.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

I'd like to see Parry and Guard get similar, but weaker, treatment as Shield.

Spears(the Polearm type I mean) and "light" swords could use bonuses to Parry proc rate... while weaker H2H weapon types(like Katars and long delay ones) could use bonuses on Guard.


And I don't view Level Caps at handicaps. They are tools to let players work together at multiple level ranges without destroying the challenge. Also, not every enemy in a storyline is going to be level 75.

[Malacite]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

Samurai are reknowned swordsmen, let them access EX sword skills w/o subjob requirements. And give them something to play with between 50 and 70, their bow options are a wasteland there.

Historically they were also masters of Archery (most notably on horseback) and yet we only get a C+ rating. BS.


And Here's the link to my thread.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

You guys DO realize Katanas and Great Katanas are swords right? I mean you might have an argument for for Katanas, but shesh.

EDIT: And why do you bring up history... YEAH LOL, REMEMBER THAT TIME THE POPE SHOT SOMEONE WITH A BOW AND ARROW?! LOL

[Kailea]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

And you keep trying to force players to play your way and only your way.
If players use or don't use the lvl cap option is not your problem, what matters is that everyone has options so they enjoy the time they spend playing XI; without having to meet your very personal criteria of what is challenging and what isn't.

and you not wanting level caps at all, thats a form of forcing as well, I for one am a DRG, and every time I see someone shouting to do a big boss mission thats not capped, I see them shouting for a full group of BLM or something to that effect. I am sorry but that is so boring, and not even challenging.

Hey we could not beat it we need to think of a different way to kill it.... "lets throw 18 BLMs at it" .... yeah let me tell you thats a great world shattering strategy.....

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

And you keep trying to force players to play your way and only your way.

Who is forcing anything here? This is a forum for ideas. Its SE that decides whether you cap things or not. They don't sit back and say "Take of this gear to make it more challenging." They take away job abilities and spells with a level cap, handicapping you and making you rethink how to play your job under that context.

You remember that final mission in GTA3? They took all your good weapons and cars away from you. You had to start from scratch. You knew the rules of the game and were depowered for the final run. But you could still win based off what you had learned.

What level caps are is essentially no different from that.

If players use or don't use the lvl cap option is not your problem, what matters is that everyone has options so they enjoy the time they spend playing XI; without having to meet your very personal criteria of what is challenging and what isn't.

The option to level cap is nice, but ultimately defeats its own seemingly benevolant purpose. If you can find a group of friends that are willing and want to do the 60 cap Assaults, you're a lucky guy. Most people won't take anything less than uncapped and your low level friends are SOL.

[Auron517]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

We've gone through this topic many times before in these forum and my answer is still the same. Being lvl 30, 40 or 75 doesn't matter, you'll have overpowering gear and food at any level.

So you're telling me level 30 equipment and abilities are just as powerful as those available at 75?

"Muling for hours" is a bit of an overstatement. Most of my lowbie mage gear is sitting in my Mog Locker ready for any level capped activities I plan on doing. There are 16 equipment slots and 8 delivery box spaces. Even if all you alternative gear is on a mule, it's only two trips.

Listing muling as a reason against level caps is farfetched, seeing as a logging out for fifteen minutes is neglible compared to the rest of time consuming activities in game.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

If you don't care about being l33t for lower caps... a quick visit to armor storage NPC and maybe the AH for a cheap weapon works fine for most caps.

[Malacite]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

If you want to get really technical, Katana literally means sword in Japanese.

[Raydeus]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

and you not wanting level caps at all, thats a form of forcing as well, I for one am a DRG, and every time I see someone shouting to do a big boss mission thats not capped, I see them shouting for a full group of BLM or something to that effect. I am sorry but that is so boring, and not even challenging.

Hey we could not beat it we need to think of a different way to kill it.... "lets throw 18 BLMs at it" .... yeah let me tell you thats a great world shattering strategy.....

I haven't been able to complete ZM14 so I feel the pain, however I understand why players do it. After hearing of 6 attempts of beating DM without burning ending up in mass slaughters and then hearing about an alliance of BLM pwn the BC. What way do you think players will choose to do it next?

And besides that has nothing to do with level capped fights, if DM was lower lvl players would just replace the BLMs with SMNs or RNGs. It's sad but it's just the way it is.

Who is forcing anything here? This is a forum for ideas. Its SE that decides whether you cap things or not. They don't sit back and say "Take of this gear to make it more challenging." They take away job abilities and spells with a level cap, handicapping you and making you rethink how to play your job under that context.

You remember that final mission in GTA3? They took all your good weapons and cars away from you. You had to start from scratch. You knew the rules of the game and were depowered for the final run. But you could still win based off what you had learned.

What level caps are is essentially no different from that.

So you're telling me level 30 equipment and abilities are just as powerful as those available at 75?.

If that was the case SE would take away all our gear and make us fight the BC with starting gear and Onion weapons, so players would have to rely on skill alone to win the fight. There's overpowering gear at all lvl ranges, so there's no effective way to gimp player's gear without destroying balance for players with regular items.

The only thing that kinda adds a handicap in capped fights is the lack of higher lvl spells and abilities, that's true, but most of the times either it doesn't make much of a difference or it makes players just SMN/RNG/BLM burn it and leave other jobs behind like it happened with prommies.

And if you add the muling and low lvl gear gathering into the mix then you can see why no one ever wanted to help in capped missions.

The option to level cap is nice, but ultimately defeats its own seemingly benevolant purpose. If you can find a group of friends that are willing and want to do the 60 cap Assaults, you're a lucky guy. Most people won't take anything less than uncapped and your low level friends are SOL.

Having hard caps on battlefields did nothing to help players get more help for fights, they actually made it more difficult for players who already went through the missions to want to help those who were left behind.

How many players did you hear complaining about being left behind and their static being unwilling to go back to help them catch up? If they could just fight without muling, without losing xp and maybe even gaining xp in the process then getting help for said missions would be much easier. Which is what SE seems to be aiming at with CoP changes, even if they are keeping the lvl caps.

Having the option to fight at a lower lvls isn't really meant to be used by everyone, simply because of all the preparations it requires; but to give players who can't or wont fight the lvl 75 battles an option to fight em in a way that is better for them.

It's up to the players (and their party) to decide what lvl range is better for them regardless of what they choose.

"Muling for hours" is a bit of an overstatement. Most of my lowbie mage gear is sitting in my Mog Locker ready for any level capped activities I plan on doing. There are 16 equipment slots and 8 delivery box spaces. Even if all you alternative gear is on a mule, it's only two trips.

Listing muling as a reason against level caps is farfetched, seeing as a logging out for fifteen minutes is neglible compared to the rest of time consuming activities in game.

I wish it was an overstatement, maybe you don't have many items, but anyone with more than one 75 job (and a bunch of lvl 40s) will tell you how much inventory space you need, if you add consumables, Ex items (quest items, event items and others), crafting items, drops, crystals and many other things then that brand new mog locker only saves you from creating one more mule.

As a RDM just for equip macros I use around 50 of the 60 spaces I have in my gobbie bag, then you gotta add consumables and seals and other drops to the mix, so I'm always full.

And unless I half-ass it and keep only 16 pieces of gear on me (and skip most of my equip macro gear) chances are I'm not just gonna have to get 16 pieces of gear from my mules for the lvl capped fight, but I'm also gonna have to log in and out repeatedly to make room for those 16 items.

That can easily take an hour or more.

If you don't have that amount of items then I feel happy for you, but me and most of the people I know aren't so lucky.

[Malacite]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

I believe SE said that about 70% of the WotG will be for high level players. That said, I'm betting the majority (if not all) of the missions fall under that category. It makes sense though, given the setting. The Crystal War was epic.

[Auron517]

Re: What would you like to see in WoTG

If that was the case SE would take away all our gear and make us fight the BC with starting gear and Onion weapons, so players would have to rely on skill alone to win the fight. There's overpowering gear at all lvl ranges, so there's no effective way to gimp player's gear without destroying balance for players with regular items.

What you are not realizing is that level caps are SE's way of "stripping us of our gear and making us use onion weapons", so to speak. They take away our uber equipment and spells; making us use our brains in order to progress through the story. What gears in the mid levels are "overpowering"?

Sure, there's some nice ra/ex stuff available, but nothing that will define your success on a BC Fight; unlike at 75 when you have merit abilities, spells and abjuration gear. Also, you speak about players getting left behind on promies as if they are unbeatable without supposed perfect setups.

All of the Promyvions are beatable as long as your group is competent, it doesn't matter what your jobs are. Anyone using that kind of excuse for not getting through promyvion are creating a smoke screen for their lacking abilities.

I wish it was an overstatement, maybe you don't have many items, but anyone with more than one 75 job (and a bunch of lvl 40s) will tell you how much inventory space you need, if you add consumables, Ex items (quest items, event items and others), crafting items, drops, crystals and many other things then that brand new mog locker only saves you from creating one more mule.
As a RDM just for equip macros I use around 50 of the 60 spaces I have in my gobbie bag, then you gotta add consumables and seals and other drops to the mix, so I'm always full.
And unless I half-ass it and keep only 16 pieces of gear on me (and skip most of my equip macro gear) chances are I'm not just gonna have to get 16 pieces of gear from my mules for the lvl capped fight, but I'm also gonna have to log in and out repeatedly to make room for those 16 items.
That can easily take an hour or more.
If you don't have that amount of items then I feel happy for you, but me and most of the people I know aren't so lucky.

Well, of course, if you have five jobs at end game, you're going to be crunched for space. This, however, does not mean that Square is lacking options within the game for us to store our gear. I, myself, don't have a 75 job, but I don't have much space either. In fact, I'm currently paying for six mules to hold all my crafting materials and extra equipment because I'm a pack rat on my main and have loads of stuff.

People have asked for more storage outlets; Square's trying to give us more options. (i.e. Mog Lockers) Choosing to have more than one job end game, or even just one with loads of equipment swaps is putting ourselves in a position to watch our storage space...it's just one of the things we have to live with.