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  • Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

    It's harder to complete a party at several level ranges due to lack of players. I speak mostly of 40 to 70. Things like adding more exp quests and base exp rewards to things like Eco-Warrior, Garrison, and EFs would be good solutions, but I have another idea:

    The enhancing of the NPC Fellow so that it could pull it's weight in a party.

    Fellows take up a party slot and give a 30% exp penalty to the user. They are very awkward and generally couldn't be filled to fill a role outside helping with solo tasks.

    The ideal result form adjustments to the Fellow system would be that people can substitute hard to find jobs with their NPC. Of course, Fellows would never become so potent that they would replace the player controlled character(though... I don't know, I had a run with a static of a Great Sword PLD and DRK/WHM recently...).


    First off, remove that base exp penalty and make it "party based". Having a fellow out is the same as having a party member. This would have a positive and negative effect: With Signet you'll lower exp lose while duoing, but without it, it would increase. I see this as a trade off for the buffing of these NPCs.

    When called with Signet/Sanction, Fellows should gain the effect of Signet or Sanction(including additional effects bought with it). (Regarding Sanction/ToAU, see what I say below).

    Fellows would be effected by AoE buffing spells, including Protectra/Shellra and songs. Fellows would be allowed to be targeted by spells such as Regen, Refresh, and so on. No spell or party member effecting job ability wouldn't work with Fellows.

    Make Fellow's in-battle chat visible to all party members.

    Get rid of limiting the maximum bond a player can have based on quests.

    Increase the base maximum of kills/time to 20/60min and maximum to 40/120 min. For players to get access to higher "bond"(therefor increase their maximum kills/time), add plenty of side quests that are available very early.

    Remove some restrictions on where a fellow can be called: allow in Pso'Xja uncapped zones, Sky, Sea, and some Beastmen zones. I am not going to touch on the subject of ToAU, it seems SE has something in mind for that one.



    Now, you've given Fellows a boost as they can be treated like party members, but there is still more: AI.

    First off, this is a very important AI issue that a job like PUP could be helped by: NPCs curing/buffing party members.

    Another AI thing, something BST could benefit from, Fellows won't use AoE WSes if other monsters are near.

    At the Rendezvous Point, include the option to change how a Fellow will engage the enemy: (can select several)
    1) When you attack the monster. (now including spells and range attacks)
    2) When you engage the monster.
    3) When you draw enmity from the monster. (Including aggro)
    4) When told to do so. (this becomes the default)

    NPCs no longer require players to be engaged and will not engage while "resting" even if the player does.

    NPCs no longer rest when the player does.

    First off, if #4 above is selected, a new option named "Assault" is an option when selecting the NPC. You go into sub-target and whatever you picked(assuming it isn't claimed) will be attacked by the NPC. While engaged "Disengage becomes an option, which turns it off".

    Another option: Rest is available through the same method. It makes the player /heal. The option "Get up" can cancel it.

    Finally, the command /fellow "Assault" <t>, /fellow "Rest" "fellow's name", and so on will work as commands and in macros.



    Another idea to play around with is giving Fellows job abilities based on weapons. How often(or potent/common) they use the ability would be based on how high "tier" the weapon is.

    Example: Give a Tank-type Fellow a Sword, maybe he'll begin using Sentinel. Give a Attack-type Fellow a Sword, maybe he'll begin using Holy Circle. Healers would gain no benefit from using a Sword(as a Attack-type might not gain any benefits from using a Staff or Club).

    You could cover many types of weapons this way. Imagine Katana allowing tank-types to cast Utsusemi, Dual Wield on Attacker, and debuff on Healer.

    Polearms giving Jump... Great Katanas giving Meditate... you get the idea.

    Shield's effects would probably dominate over weapons... a tank using Shield Bash for example.

    SE could even expand the weapon list to Ranged Weapons and instruments(oh snap, BRD). (To balance this, Shields shouldn't be allowed to equip while a ranged weapon and Ranged effects would dominate over weapon's effect).

    I would suggest healers and tanks getting their weapon skill nerfed to B and A-. Maybe if instruments were added(each tank/healer/and attacker casting different songs) drop the Skill an additional two "levels" (A+ to B+, A- to B-, B to C+).

    Hmmm, just a thought.
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  • #2
    Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

    Originally posted by Legal Fish View Post
    but there is still more: AI.
    Hmmph. Better AI would create heavier load on the servers, especially if it's improved so much that people actually use NPC Fellows a lot more. Can't exactly move the AI function to client, either, since PS2's memory is already highly impacted, and any function shifted to the PC client is open to hacking... -_-;

    Without better AI, though, NPC Fellows will always be worse than your third-rate PC's...

    * * *

    Not sure how to feel about turning NPC Fellow into a BST pet with all those commands... Seems somewhat dirty make my NPC pal into a slave.

    The exp penalty isn't really a big deal; 70% exp from a so-so party is much better than 100% exp from sitting in Jeuno/Whitegate. Trade-off, BRP, is a good thing.

    And, how do you address level mismatch between party and the NPC, anyway? Lv.20 party with Lv.60 tank? Lv.12 party getting Protect III and Cure III? It seems broken...

    * * *

    Still, given the chronic shortage of Lv.40+ tanks on Ifrit, a usable Fellow for tanking would go a long way to reduce seeking time for many people. It would be nice if S-E makes some sort third-rate tank or cure bot for us, lasting not too long, which would allow the parties to get started while waiting for players with suitable jobs to come on the market...

    Maybe instead of appropriating NPC Fellows, S-E should just make NPC mercenaries available for hire? "Galka PLD53/WAR26: 5,300 Gil/Vana'diel Day. Maximum duration: one Vana'diel day. Reraise included. Stats: ..." Players purchase a "summoning" earring or something, and call the NPC mercenary to camp when ready to start. (Edit: To address any "NPC PL'er" problem, just make it so the mercenary refuses to do any work unless it's the lowest level member in the party.)

    Of course, this still have the problem of budgeting server's CPU for running AI, not to mention needing whole bunch of work to create and test, so probably won't fly...
    Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
    yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
    Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
    leaving no trace in the water.

    - Mugaku

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    • #3
      Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

      Personally, I think if you're just hurting for another DD for a bit, someone to just whack the mob around a bit and if your NPC can hit the mob (i.e. she/he's at or near your level) then why not bring him/her along?

      It sucks that you don't have your NPC with you for very long. :/ Although in a pinch, he/she's good enough while you're waiting for a replacement to arrive.

      You'd be hard pressed to find parties willing to allow it though, damn the cookie cutter mentality for that.
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      • #4
        Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

        And, how do you address level mismatch between party and the NPC, anyway? Lv.20 party with Lv.60 tank? Lv.12 party getting Protect III and Cure III? It seems broken...
        Huh? If they are above you in level, they capped to your level.

        The exp penalty isn't really a big deal; 70% exp from a so-so party is much better than 100% exp from sitting in Jeuno/Whitegate. Trade-off, BRP, is a good thing.
        This statement confuses me and I think it's on your part. I don't reduce the exp penalty, I just change it so it's the same as a party member. This makes it much more linear.

        Maybe instead of appropriating NPC Fellows, S-E should just make NPC mercenaries available for hire?
        Hmmm... er... this doesn't make sense to me. Not only does it seem a little out of place(I can't wrap my mind around how it would work), but why not just use what's already there?
        Read my blog.
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        • #5
          Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

          Originally posted by Legal Fish View Post
          Huh? If they are above you in level, they capped to your level.
          lol. Shows you how often I play with my NPC Fellow; never noticed that about them.

          Originally posted by Legal Fish View Post
          Hmmm... er... this doesn't make sense to me. Not only does it seem a little out of place(I can't wrap my mind around how it would work), but why not just use what's already there?
          So S-E wouldn't have to touch a system that is already working, or alter it (NPC Fellow) as little as possible. Depending on S-E's architecture, it may be better for them.

          Think of it as a different NPC fellow system, but designed specifically for group exp use. There wouldn't be a need to raise the NPC level ahead of time, and it would come without all the story/backgrounds baggages. I think other MMO's may have something like NPC for hire to make it possible to exp without a full party.
          Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
          yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
          Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
          leaving no trace in the water.

          - Mugaku

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          • #6
            Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

            Group or stanard npc for exp parties both sound good to me. Most of the time I use mine in actually parties if a dd d/cs and i can use my npc there >_>; saves my hide enough times.

            And can they please update the zone these npcs can go to? /cry Sea, sky and ToAu areas please ;_;
            Adventures of Akashimo Hakubi & Nekoai Nanashi


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            • #7
              Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

              I don't see a problem, I have used my NPC in fierce attacker made for a replacement DD many times, while the PT looks for a 6th, and my NPC does really well in the fight.

              The upgrades they have made already to NPC system have made me very happy, but I do agree, adding NPC usage to the new expansion areas would be nice, maybe they will do that before WotG comes out.
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              • #8
                Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                Let's look at the bigger picture here, let's look at why 50-70 in particular is slim pickings.

                First off, we have the Genkais. This is seemingly no problem for the players that have already completed them, but it still has a degree of influence for those taking a first job to 75 and impacts those leveling through that period again.

                You have five forced instances of bottlenecking. And in the first two instances of genkai, jobs like Paladin, Ninja, Red Mage, Corsair, White Mage and Bard breeze right through them. I've levelled six jobs through those levels and DRG and RNG were easily the most painful of the six. RDM, COR and BRD were a breeze, BST I just continued soloing and that's a different matter.


                But there are also five optional bottlenecks - the AFs. I don't know how you go about stopping them from being obstacles. For some jobs its must-have gear and other's its not, but mucking with them dimishes thier purpose, so having a proud RDM that doesn't want to continue levelling without is Tabard or Hat will still sometimes happen. This is really less of an issue, but its still a charming diversion everyone tends to participate in. It can't really be helped, but it affects things in the 50-60 area.

                60-70 is somewhat affected more by endgame. Minimum Dynamis requirement is 65, which leans to favor mages and support classes more than the rest. Some LSes still set 65 as the minimum. This, again, is something that just cannot be helped. A 65 RDM, WHM, COR, or BRD is going to be handy whether they're at the peak of thier powers or not.

                So there's still a degree of dependancy on new players to drive things 50-70 and the obvious advantages of some roles have, in addition the these stopgaps, make parties harder to form or keep together. If somone hits their cap, there's really no reason to keep going and if you were uncapped from the start of a PT and level beyond it, you're potentially being held back by the party or you're now dimishing that PTs EXP per hour.

                Perhaps its just time to do away with Genkai 1-4, but lets leave Genkai 5 in place so there's still Maat to face. Its not like 1-4 really prepared you for Maat, they just made you want to kick his ass. Maybe 1-4 can be changed to some quests for a nifty item or something.

                Additionally, we can keep the AF quests and the charm they added to the game, but let's lower the level requirement to quest some of it. Some of these quests are soloable and with so many people with so many high level jobs, they're not as hard as they used to be anyway. Lower the quest caps to 41, let the older players get the questable AFs over and done with early at least.

                Make the coffer keys a bit more of a common drop, too. The drop rate for Monastic Cavern coffer keys is deplorable while Quicksand Caves they're a bit more common. I can't see SE changing the mobs levels of the coffer areas, but if the keys drop more easily, then that's less time seeking them out at an appropriate level.

                AF BCNMs quest NMs could also stand to be lowered in requirements.

                I think removing these bottlenecks and easing up these AF diversions would help that 50-60 section flow, which in turn would help 60+ flow a bit more as well in terms a job availability. However at 65+, endgame starts mucking things up again.

                Would fellows as party members work? I suppose they could, but you're essentially allowing every job to become a pet job if you extend thier time to be available, which is a direct slap in the face to PUP, DRG, SMN and BST. We have enough poor treatment from players and SE, thanks.

                I think Fellow limitations exist as not to diminish the roles of the pet jobs in party, as well as the role of players in other jobs.

                NPC Fellow players also have a tendacy to be obnoxious. They'll go spelunking into zones like CN to "EXP thier NPC" in the midst of players trying to level thier real characters. Extending the time a fellow can be out would make it even more obnoxious than it already potentially can be.
                Last edited by Omgwtfbbqkitten; 07-12-2007, 07:50 AM.

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                • #9
                  Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                  Originally posted by Legal Fish View Post
                  *stuff*
                  I agree with a lot of this stuff, but disagree with others.

                  I do think party target spells and effects *should* be usable on and by NPCs. I would love Regen from my Fellow. But treating them exp wise as a whole 'nother member isn't really needed, the 30% penalty isn't really that bad.

                  Not too fond of the whole 'commands' thing either. These are supposed to be other characters in the game, not just pets. Maybe if they used the Rendevous Point system in this, where you can 'suggest' how they act in a fight. For example, if you use a healer type, you can set it so it will rest after battle if it needs MP. Or you could set tank/attacker types to attack any monster you claim whether you engage in combat or not. Though that would hurt sleep nuking...

                  Also, I think any potential job ability additions should be based more on the job you've chosen then the weapon that's used. A Fierce attacker should get Berserk, in addition to Counter, DA and Att bonus. Where as a shield type would get a def boost JA on top of self cures and 'voke.

                  As for their durations, I think that's fine as is. Once you get a high bond, they will stay out for a LONG time. And if SE ever remembers these things exist, and increase thier lvl cap, I'm sure they'd stay out that much longer. Plus, when push comes to shove, there's always the Tactics pearl.

                  Also, Healer types should be able to raise party members. Not if you die, but if another member dies, they should cast raise.

                  And other then having them cast 'better' spells or use 'better' WS, the AI from what I seen is pretty decent. Mine, set to soothing healer, will keep me cured and clear my status before the mob even finishes hitting me with it. If my NPC is out and I'm poisoned, it's only because she is out of MP.

                  I know from experiance though, that my NPC can do a sufficiant job of acting as a DD/back up healer in pts, at least into the 50s, because I've done it many many times.

                  Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                  *spiel about LB and AF quests*
                  Actually, that's totally incorrect and would be uneeded changes. The reason why 40-70 is the toughest to lvl in is because *most* people stop lvling alternate jobs at 40, for subjob and capped fight purposes, while people at lvl 70 can join lvl 75 pts and still gain decent exp. There is a gap in the middle lvls because there's no need to have a job at those lvls. One lvl 75 player can have a dozen 37 subs, and even cap a few off at 40 to do some cash drop BCNMs and ENMs. And this was an observation made by SE themselves. Limit Breaks and AFs do NOT take up that much time over lvling.

                  NPC Fellow players also have a tendacy to be obnoxious. They'll go spelunking into zones like CN to "EXP thier NPC" in the midst of players trying to level thier real characters. Extending the time a fellow can be out would make it even more obnoxious than it already potentially can be.
                  Not for nothing, but I've seen plenty of Bst and such do the same thing. If someone is an ass, they'll be so regardless. It has nothing to do with NPC lvling as it could easily be another party trying to get Exp, a bunch of people trying to skill up or even just some guy farming. Though NPCs may be *another* reason to enter the nest, they're certainly not why people there are being 'obnoxious'.
                  "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

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                  • #10
                    Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                    Originally posted by Ziero View Post
                    Actually, that's totally incorrect and would be uneeded changes. The reason why 40-70 is the toughest to lvl in is because *most* people stop lvling alternate jobs at 40, for subjob and capped fight purposes, while people at lvl 70 can join lvl 75 pts and still gain decent exp. There is a gap in the middle lvls because there's no need to have a job at those lvls. One lvl 75 player can have a dozen 37 subs, and even cap a few off at 40 to do some cash drop BCNMs and ENMs. And this was an observation made by SE themselves. Limit Breaks and AFs do NOT take up that much time over lvling.


                    When you can't find tanks and healers and there are two bottlenecks between 50 and 60, its no longer about the people who stopped leveling subs at 40, you've been dealing with that fact from 40-50. Its now about the jobs that have it easier getting ahead more quickly than they usually do. Believe it or not, those Genkai quest DO stagger things, especially for new players.

                    There is a world of difference between taking a RDM or NIN from 50-60 than a DRG or THF through the same levels. I did the RDM, BRD and COR thing there - support and tanks have it easier here, not to mention levelling fast allows them the freedom to persue genkai and AFs more quickly. 50-55 as a melee is agony by contrast. Its slow, nigh impossible to make a PT, too, because there's often nothing to make a PT with.

                    Seriously, take a few different job types through these levels and you'll see the difference.

                    When you get to 60+, the advantage of support and tank ebbs a bit, not only do they start to see a little more competition, the number or melees drops off a bit. So it sometimes ends up that melees are more difficult to find.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                      Originally posted by Legal Fish View Post
                      I don't reduce the exp penalty, I just change it so it's the same as a party member. This makes it much more linear.
                      I think such a change would be better since it distributes the "exp penalty" among all the players in the pt, rather than having one player (the one who called out his NPC fellow) shouldering all of it.

                      You've got 5 people in your party. You just need one person to call out their NPC. Who wants to volunteer to take a 30% cut to their personal exp so that everyone else can benefit from it? Anyone?

                      *insert cricket chirping here*
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                      • #12
                        Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                        Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post

                        When you can't find tanks and healers and there are two bottlenecks between 50 and 60, its no longer about the people who stopped leveling subs at 40, you've been dealing with that fact from 40-50. Its now about the jobs that have it easier getting ahead more quickly than they usually do. Believe it or not, those Genkai quest DO stagger things, especially for new players.
                        There is a world of difference between taking a RDM or NIN from 50-60 than a DRG or THF through the same levels. I did the RDM, BRD and COR thing there - support and tanks have it easier here, not to mention levelling fast allows them the freedom to persue genkai and AFs more quickly. 50-55 as a melee is agony by contrast. Its slow, nigh impossible to make a PT, too, because there's often nothing to make a PT with.
                        Seriously, take a few different job types through these levels and you'll see the difference.
                        When you get to 60+, the advantage of support and tank ebbs a bit, not only do they start to see a little more competition, the number or melees drops off a bit. So it sometimes ends up that melees are more difficult to find.
                        Most limit break quests don't take long to do at all. Hell the first one is more often then not the one that takes the longest to do, and that's only because it's a fetch quest. And for the most part, AF is skipable. And if you have a higher lvl job, soloable. Yes, some people may stop lvling to do AF quests, but that's no different then people who stop lvling to camp NM drops or farm for expenisve armor. Both of the latter chocies can *easily* take up far more time then AF hunting and are present in the game during one's *entire* trip to 75. Those speed bumps are *not* the reason for the large slowdown in Exp during the 40-70 range.

                        And the difference between Melee and Support jobs is a *totally* different subject that is present at *all* lvls. And that's because there is on average more Melee DD classes available then support classes because there are more melee DD jobs then support jobs. This problem has nothing to do with any exact lvl because people can have this same exact problems in the Dunes.

                        The reason there is more people lvling jobs 1-40 is because a single job may need multiple sub jobs, which cap at 37, leaving no other reason to take it higher. And the reason why there is more people lvling 70-75 is because you can't get higher then 75, and people at lvl 70 can join people at 75 with very little penalty as they fight the same mobs.

                        Originally posted by LyonheartLakshmi View Post
                        I think such a change would be better since it distributes the "exp penalty" among all the players in the pt, rather than having one player (the one who called out his NPC fellow) shouldering all of it.
                        You've got 5 people in your party. You just need one person to call out their NPC. Who wants to volunteer to take a 30% cut to their personal exp so that everyone else can benefit from it? Anyone?
                        *insert cricket chirping here*
                        I do it all the time actually. It's *my* NPC that is being called, meaning it prevents someone else from calling theirs, meaning *my* NPC is gaining something that theirs could have in it's place. Assuming you're in a 5 man pt and another person has a viable NPC that is. But the basics of it is that you are gaining something by having an NPC out, so you should bear the brunt of any negative effects that go with it. I'm sure no one would ever let someone call an NPC if it affected *their* exp, regardless of whether a 6th player would do the same or not.
                        "I have a forebrain, my ability to abstract thoughts allow for all kinds of things" - Red Mage 8-Bit theater

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                        • #13
                          Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                          "Omg" please just leave this thread. Man, you totally missed the point. Genkei is hardly a bottleneck. It slows people down, but it hasn't been a bottleneck since the days where half the population was under level 55 and needed G1 done. The reason why people have a hard time leveling isn't because of AF quests or level limits, it's because there is simply less people in those ranges. Fellows in this idea are meant to fill that role in a temporary sense.

                          Don't even debate me on this, you are being off-topic.

                          Not too fond of the whole 'commands' thing either.
                          I could understand why it would seem too "pet"-like, but to allow players to rest while the fellow fights or vice versa, I think it's needed. You still aren't controlling when they use TP or what spells they cast or using PUP like "Maneuvers" to get them to do certain things. It does sort of act like a pet job I guess, but in my opinion, an effective party member is slightly more important.

                          Also, I think any potential job ability additions should be based more on the job you've chosen then the weapon that's used. A Fierce attacker should get Berserk, in addition to Counter, DA and Att bonus. Where as a shield type would get a def boost JA on top of self cures and 'voke.
                          Oh, they would be based on job, in addition to weapon. The reason I picked weapons to determine the strength/common/etc of the ability is to give a useless gimmick some importance. As of right now, upgrading weapons do nothing outside looks. Which would be okay if it was free like armor, but it's pretty expensive actually. This would put more importance on NPC bond, crafters, and customization.

                          Example of what I mean with weapon+job making a difference. Let's try to talk about instruments that would be added as an option:

                          String/Harp:
                          Tank- Minne
                          Melee- Minuet
                          Mage- Ballad + Occasional Etude (sort of based on job, think Dark Eles on the final floor of Limbus)

                          Wind/Horn/Flute:
                          Tank- Paeon
                          Melee- Madrigal
                          Mage- Carol(based on monster) + Threnody + Requiem

                          Uh... and to list an example of how jobs wouldn't work with certain weapons:

                          Great Katana
                          -Tank: Third Eye
                          -Melee: Meditate
                          -Mage: Nothing

                          Also, Healer types should be able to raise party members. Not if you die, but if another member dies, they should cast raise.
                          This isn't a terrible idea. Could work perfectly.

                          As for their durations, I think that's fine as is. Once you get a high bond, they will stay out for a LONG time. And if SE ever remembers these things exist, and increase thier lvl cap, I'm sure they'd stay out that much longer. Plus, when push comes to shove, there's always the Tactics pearl.
                          In my opinion, not long enough. The whole point of this is to take Fellows once step further. This would greatly change the gameplay of FFXI. A group of three people could static with their NPCs like this even. Removing the quest cap and increasing the average time out / monster kills would just allow them to perform as well as a party member in one is needed.


                          Lyonheart explains why the exp change would be nice. Like I said, it makes things linear. Even easier to understand. Instead of making a BST pet, it makes it a party member(which is basically is, as it takes up a spot).
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                          Currently: Entry #32, August 31/07.
                          Entry 32: Death to Castro

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                          • #14
                            Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                            Meh. I'm still worried about CPU budget for improved AI (especially when it has to handle many additional abilities).

                            Also, it should be emphasized that NPC fellow/mercenary cannot become too good; they should be last resort for filling in a party. And, there should be safeguards to keep high level players with NPC from wiping out camps like they did to Crawlers Nest and other places when they open up new areas to NPC.
                            Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                            yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                            Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                            leaving no trace in the water.

                            - Mugaku

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                            • #15
                              Re: Fellows replacing party members: Good idea?

                              I've always wanted to do more with my npc, making them More custamizable would make it all the more beneficial. Staticing with 3 people and their NPCs would be way fun, seeing as how some people kinda did it to lvl their npcs in the first place.

                              Yay, Ty for this Eohmer~

                              Silentsteel - Taru of Awesomeness on Valefor

                              80 Whm, 86 Drg, 40 Sam, 37 Blm, 31 Smn, & lower as it goes down... I have way too much play time for no levels, lol.

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