What Einherjar should of been

[WishMaster3K]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Hello, I'm Pot. You are black, Sir Kettle.

This is funny to me because I say that all the time. (Actually, I say "this is like the pot calling the kettle black." But the spirit is the same.)

I've never played Einherjar.

But above me there is an argument over COR and BLM or BRD or something. Idk. You guys are complaining that the other one sleeps better.

Based around the strengths and limitations of the situation, either job is ideal for a given scenario.

But in Einherjar, the general gist is that there are a LOT of mobs. And the recast on shots can't be a good thing for "crowd," control. (I have to give BBQ credit though for being the poster-child for COR. I've learned a lot from him..)

While COR might suffice in Dynamis, the dynamics of Einherjar seem to be different, so maybe similar strategies might not work.

But aside from that, leave it to the RDMs. God knows we don't have enough to deal with already.

I've gotten so bored end-game that I sold my Spider Torque because I needed money for PLD gear, and I don't miss it.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

This is funny to me because I say that all the time. (Actually, I say "this is like the pot calling the kettle black." But the spirit is the same.)

Doesn't everybody say that when somebody is being a blatant hipocrit?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

I just never hear too many people use it.

[Amele]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

While COR might suffice in Dynamis, the dynamics of Einherjar seem to be different, so maybe similar strategies might not work.
But aside from that, leave it to the RDMs. God knows we don't have enough to deal with already.
I've gotten so bored end-game that I sold my Spider Torque because I needed money for PLD gear, and I don't miss it.

(incidentally, against most of the 'tough' trash mobs, bards are about the only thing that -can- reliably sleep them. rdms are there to keep the bards alive cause the whitemages are busy trying to keep the rest of the instance from dying to tier III-ga spells coming from 12 different mobs at once)

just a quick run down for the people who haven't done much einherjar. (wing I only - since that's what people will meet first if they're not doing it regularly)

your leader buys a 180k entry lamp and you all go the halzham.

you form up, you enter.

you're greeted by either: 6 mobs, 12 mobs, 6 mobs and 6 mobs, 6 mobs and 12 mobs, or 12 mobs and 12 mobs. these are the 'trash' mobs.

there are approximately a half dozen different types, mostly undead, mostly resistant to sleep (but not lullaby) they range from ridiculously easy (6 Doomed Toad) to nearly autoloss (12 bomb + 12 dark elementals)

each wave shares aggro and aggro is instance wide. pull one of your 12 dark elementals, be greeted by 11 of its buddies.


sometime during the first wave, a random beast mob will spawn - kill it and get a message, or not. or get a chest or not. or don't kill it and let it despawn to maybe get a message (or not). none of it seems to do anything apparent, although the chest has nifty stuff. assuming you're not dying to those 24 trash mobs doing their best to rape your bards.

eventually, (assuming you didn't get an autoloss to the trash mobs) you go roll up on the boss.

pray you got the orobon or the wivre, since these two are a nice and easy straightforward win.

if you got the marid, you may as well drop lamp now. around 25% he spams probiscus shower (healing WS) faster than you can do damage. no. really. this thing makes JoL's fully buffed regen look like a joke.

if you got Marlboro, you may as well drop lamp now. he has a stupid amount of HP and is hard to do significant damage to. while killable in theory (in as much as people can actually get him to 0% hp) you are significantly more likely to time out before he's dead.

approximately 25% of all einherjar runs end before you even engage the first mob.
^ this is what is broken. this is what SE should fix.


also: expecting the grind to be mindless and expecting the 'new and varied event!!!1one!' to be mindless are two totally different things. I'm perfectly ok with zerg style exp (ignoring that it's not even that if you're a mage - whereas einherjar really is mindless: spam sleep, spam cure. depending on whether you're a sleeper or a healer) I'm not ok with an endgame event being mindless and broken.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Should have been.

God, that annoys the shit out of me.

I've done one Einherjar, we got skeletons, and we got owned because we had a total of two Bards in our LS. The rest of us mages didn't even bother with the Sleepgas. Just a waste of MP. It was kind of fun, once. I don't think getting killed en masse would be fun again, though. Since I haven't done it more than once I don't have any suggestions. I'm just - like my LS - planning to wait it out and see if any strategies come up or anything.

[Cotners]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

We have done Einherjar 5 times now... I would say (not bragging) that we are an experienced shell (taken down Vrtra, DL, Jormy, JoL), but Einherjar is so random and chaotic that we have only beaten 1 of the chambers. While it's not the most expensive thing in the game (180k vs Dyna's 1m), I really don't like paying for sure death. At least dynamis produces tangible rewards.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

What about exp loss?

Or is there an exp reward? (I'm probably misreading the comments people have made here, but just wondering..)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Doesn't everybody say that when somebody is being a blatant hipocrit?

Yes, what Legal Fish claims to be a poor strategy for Salvage and Einherjar sounds just like what is done in merit PTs, which he's perfectly fine with. AoE sleep multiple mobs and zerg them.

Basically, what Legal Fish means to say is he's fine with AoE Sleep/Zerg when its in TP burn getting him merit points, but when its in endgame and affects something he actually cares about, it a bad thing.

Hypocrisy.

And Necro, telling me I don't know what my job does, right after I stated Quick Draw does enhance enfeebles, right after I stated I regularly use Light Shot to sleep mobs... just wow.

COR cannot Paralyze, COR enhances the effects of a Paralyze spell with Ice Shot.
Slow/Earth Shot
Silence/Wind Shot
Etc. Same for Ninjutsu, BRD songs aren't affected

Corsair does not enfeebles directly, they have to observe what enfeebles are cast, then apply an appropriate QD. This is consistant with thier Phantom Rolls, which also are intended to play off the job traits of thier allies.

Sleep really, really, isn't an enfeeble. It doesn't cripple, it doesn't weaken, it just sleeps. Its for pre-emptive strikes, delaying a fight or used to recover - that's all. BLM and RDM may require enfeebling skill to improve thier ability to sleep, but it differs for BLU, BRD and COR. For BRD Singing, Wind Skill and Mary's Horn pretty much give them thier best abilty to sleep mobs, the rest is merits and Haste.

COR doesn't even have a skill for sleeping. Its a job ability, and its very damn accuracte. I've weighed the differences in EXP, Merit and endgame. I'll take my 99% sleep rate as more consistant than anything else I've used to sleep in the past. I'd send RDM or COR to lock down specific, sleep-able NMs that a BRD might not be able to keep sleep as long.

You might look at BRD and think they're better because they can sleep more mobs more quickly, but if you have jobs available that can lock down a mob longer and deal damage, I think you stand to factor that in as part of the strategy.

Einherjar has a group of mobs rush you all at once on pull. Sleepga/Horde can help depending on which mobs you get, but a few CORs could also keep a few mobs out of the mix longer and deal damage to boot. When you have a BLM on crowd control, nuking pretty much goes out the window, BRD doesn't even offer its own damage, just buffs and sleeping.

Legal's complaint was that if you get a bunch of BLMs and get undead, you're screwed. So there's one cookie-cutter strategy that can fail. Seems to me the key would be to have a broad respresentation of jobs since you don't know what you'll be facing.

You're always going to want BRD, RDM and COR for buffing regardless, so I don't see why you'd nitpick on sleeping given RDM and COR can lock down mobs pretty well single-target while BRD or BLM are left to AoE sleep. RDMs and CORs, arguably even a BLU, could pull a mob off to the side and hold it while melees deal with the mobs BRDs or BLMs are sleeping. If dark-based sleep doesn't work out, RDM and BLM go back to thier other roles because you still have three jobs with light-based sleep.

I just seems to me Legal wants Einherjar so the old tactics can be more plausible. Maybe new tactics are needed and more jobs should be considered than the HNM favorites. Salvage had different needs than Dynamis, CoP Dynamis had slight different rules than RoZ Dynamis, etc. There would really be no point to doing any of these instances if they were all the same.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

It's not often that this happens, but I actually agree with BBQ.

Kall Ifrit, it's going to get a lot colder in the Cauldron.

[Amele]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Yes, what Legal Fish claims to be a poor strategy for Salvage and Einherjar sounds just like what is done in merit PTs, which he's perfectly fine with. AoE sleep multiple mobs and zerg them.
Basically, what Legal Fish means to say is he's fine with AoE Sleep/Zerg when its in TP burn getting him merit points, but when its in endgame and affects something he actually cares about, it a bad thing.
Hypocrisy.

because the goals are different? I'm also pretty sure that BRP's issue isn't that zerging is a viable strategy: it's the only strategy. this is pretty clearly not the case with exp or there'd be no 75 paladins anywhere.

Einherjar has a group of mobs rush you all at once on pull. Sleepga/Horde can help depending on which mobs you get, but a few CORs could also keep a few mobs out of the mix longer and deal damage to boot. When you have a BLM on crowd control, nuking pretty much goes out the window, BRD doesn't even offer its own damage, just buffs and sleeping.

there's nothing wrong with a job that makes every other member of its party 10-30% more effective. especially when that job has 0mp uninterruptible aoe sleep on a fast recast timer.

Legal's complaint was that if you get a bunch of BLMs and get undead, you're screwed. So there's one cookie-cutter strategy that can fail. Seems to me the key would be to have a broad respresentation of jobs since you don't know what you'll be facing.

ehh.. I didn't get that from BRP at all actually. more to the point: just about every trash mob in wing I is strong vs. dark-based sleep, so you wouldn't use blm or rdm anyway - blu yawn is inconsistent (mobs must be facing bluemage) and cor is single target only on a one-minute timer, which just doesn't cut it in einherjar: so, bards are about the only reliable option.

your recommended strategy would hold more weight if einherjar didn't have auto-loss situations anyway.

I just seems to me Legal wants Einherjar so the old tactics can be more plausible. Maybe new tactics are needed and more jobs should be considered than the HNM favorites. Salvage had different needs than Dynamis, CoP Dynamis had slight different rules than RoZ Dynamis, etc. There would really be no point to doing any of these instances if they were all the same.

the key difference between einherjar and all of your examples being that, as written, einherjar is just a big crapshoot with a lullaby spamfest at the beginning, followed by exactly the hnm favorites to kill the megaboss in the ~10 minutes you have remaining.

all of this, combined with a really sad effort:reward ratio means that einherjar is a) not particularly fun, b) not particularly rewarding, and c) offers a fairly repetitive experience for being 'random' (unlike nyzul which actually varies from floor to floor). These three things together result in what many people consider a failure* of an endgame event.

which, considering most of us dealt with kings at one time or another (or are continuing to deal with kings) is saying a hell of alot about just how poor the implementation of einherjar is.

--
*don't get me wrong I think it's a fantastic concept. the implementation is really really awful and unbalanced and needs repaired.

[Omni]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

if its not blms, its tons of brds. i dont see how much different that is in terms of 'slightly different strategy'.

in the end, its still the same hnm/endgame strat whether u like it or not. since these have a pretty short timer, its not like you can use long term strats. you need something quick and effective. so tell me what can you do that doesnt involve some sort of zerging?

i havent seen anything novel in terms of strat for quite some time.

its not like youre gonna run a pup/rdm in there to save the say or something.

[Amele]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

if its not blms, its tons of brds. i dont see how much different that is in terms of 'slightly different strategy'.
in the end, its still the same hnm/endgame strat whether u like it or not. since these have a pretty short timer, its not like you can use long term strats. you need something quick and effective. so tell me what can you do that doesnt involve some sort of zerging?
i havent seen anything novel in terms of strat for quite some time.
its not like youre gonna run a pup/rdm in there to save the say or something.

salvage is pretty novel, actually.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

i havent seen anything novel in terms of strat for quite some time.
its not like you're gonna run a pup/rdm in there to save the say or something.

On the contrary, good sir.

[Necropolis]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Ah, yet you don't mention that cors DO debuff (dispel). I won't argue the definition of enfeeble as it applies to FFXI, but I do hold sleep as a form of enfeebling. Same as I do stun. In fact I use sleep to stun if stun is still on a timer.

Cors are a fine job, and should be in a mix of a balanced party, but I can't buy that they are superior (even in mass) to AoE sleepers in events such as Dynamis, Einherjar et cetera. Just because your bard had lower sleep success, don't assume that you were the best bard. I've seen bards sleep, if the bard knows what he's doing his sleep will still without a fault.

The argument that when the mobs wake up, it's a dead bard, well thats where team work comes into play.

To say that a bard offers no damage while cor does, I beg to differ. While you're cookie cutter meripo bard doesn't DD they are more than equipped to do if they please. I would take a bard DD over a RDM anyday, mainly because I've seen the parses. But that's a discussion for another thread.

Out of the jobs that can sleep, cor and bard are the only ones that can take some hits. Bards that have Adventurer's Dirge merited of could of course sing that on them selves. But the melees should be voking the mobs as they sleep anyways to keep the bard alive without MPKing the whm that's curing him.

But lol to your 100 light cards in dynamis. Congratulations, you spent and hour and forty minutes doing something that takes a blm, rdm or bard about 30 minutes to do. You spelt a 100 mobs.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

because the goals are different? I'm also pretty sure that BRP's issue isn't that zerging is a viable strategy: it's the only strategy. this is pretty clearly not the case with exp or there'd be no 75 paladins anywhere.

I don't see much info on the 2nd and 3rd wings of Einherjar, just the first wing and its three areas, so I'm not convinced its the same strategy as you get closer to the bottom. Hell, we don't even know why Odin Prime is all the way down there other than he's the lord of the underworld and SE usually sticks him at the bottom of some dungeon.

There's no telling what might be different down there until somone does it a lot. God, I hope this isn't how SMNs have to earn him, if at all.

there's nothing wrong with a job that makes every other member of its party 10-30% more effective. especially when that job has 0mp uninterruptible aoe sleep on a fast recast timer.

No one said it was wrong in that context, but to say Lullaby is more accurate than Light shot is wrong. Which is what I originally inferred from "consistant." Lullaby may not resist a lot, but per hour vs. Light Shot, the resist rate is very noticable. I'm speaking strictly in terms of accuracy here, not the ability to AoE sleep.

ehh.. I didn't get that from BRP at all actually. more to the point: just about every trash mob in wing I is strong vs. dark-based sleep, so you wouldn't use blm or rdm anyway - blu yawn is inconsistent (mobs must be facing bluemage) and cor is single target only on a one-minute timer, which just doesn't cut it in einherjar: so, bards are about the only reliable option.

your recommended strategy would hold more weight if einherjar didn't have auto-loss situations anyway.

Maybe they are "auto-loss" because we've not figured out the trick to the marid and other NMs yet. I don't think chests give you riddles for no reason. People used to think other instances were impossible, but then they figured them out and now things like Dynamis are a borderline cakewalk.

Give it time, it has only been a month.

At any rate, if you need light-based sleep, you need light-based sleepers. BRD isn't exactly the best catch all as the duration of thier light based sleep is weaker. Having a few BLU and COR holding some mobs to the side while melee take care of the mobs slept by the BRDs could save a considerable amount of time and MP.

Light shot may be only once a minute, but that's also about as long or even less time than the mob may actually stay sleeping. That's a minute the mob isn't wailing on you or someone else, forcing MP to be used to get people cured.

Keep in mind ToA is BLU and COR's back yard, bring as many as is reasonable and give them a try here.

the key difference between einherjar and all of your examples being that, as written, einherjar is just a big crapshoot with a lullaby spamfest at the beginning, followed by exactly the hnm favorites to kill the megaboss in the ~10 minutes you have remaining.

all of this, combined with a really sad effort:reward ratio means that einherjar is a) not particularly fun, b) not particularly rewarding, and c) offers a fairly repetitive experience for being 'random' (unlike nyzul which actually varies from floor to floor). These three things together result in what many people consider a failure* of an endgame event.

which, considering most of us dealt with kings at one time or another (or are continuing to deal with kings) is saying a hell of alot about just how poor the implementation of einherjar is.

--
*don't get me wrong I think it's a fantastic concept. the implementation is really really awful and unbalanced and needs repaired.

I remember seeing an BG interview with SE by Bercus - full of himself like always - was complaining about how sea had nothing good and blah, blah blah.

Now it seems a lot of endgame LSes are about sea. It took TIME to see what sea had to offer, to get the torques and weapons to drop, took time to do limbus to see what was there.

People always forget that with new areas comes pioneering and exploring before adjustments are ever made. I don't even think there have been many adjustments for sea beyond the "wall of justice" fiasco. So there was lots of stuff there that didn't turn up after one or even three months of being there.

Sky was the same way, so was Dynamis. So was Salvage, we're slowly moving from "crappy/no drops" to knowing where those drops can possibly be obtained.

Takes time. No endgame-ish content is going to be laid bare within a month's time. Why do people forget this right after they learn it?

I would take a bard DD over a RDM anyday, mainly because I've seen the parses. But that's a discussion for another thread.

It is a discussion for another thread, one RDMs will win, I'm afriad.