What Einherjar should of been

[Legal Fish]

I posted this on another forum, feel like posting it here too.

Just for kicks, here is what I think Einherjar should have been:

-Not adjusted by level or numbers like it is now, however based the monster count so that it will be possible with 18 players. So that means... having 30 monsters of two types wouldn't happen ever in Group I. Group II seems to work in the way you get two waves of pops. Group II would probably require 36(more than 18) still this way... but that sounds pretty nice, since Group I will be easy to farm.

-Get rid of the "everyone gets aggro from every monster rule". Monsters don't link with each other naturally. The only exception is Worms, which will all link instantly boss is pulled.

-Instead of having every single monster in one big party.. split it up in group of 3 usually(depending on number... usually want 3 to 5 monsters in each party) of monsters that's auto-follow. If the monster count is 15 then 3 parties of 5. Have every monster but the leader not aggro. The party members of the leader can't be deathpulled away(or vice versa). As whenever they lose hate, they gain hate on whatever their leader or party members are fighting. Because of the way hate will work it would be easy to kite them. Worms don't use parties.

-Every 5 minutes after engaging the first monster, another party(or a boss) will come after you. This means, sometimes you'll pick the "next group", but sometimes you'll get linked with another party after just pulling another. This keeps the "Oh shit a lot of monsters factor, gotta kill fast" of Einherjar alive. Whoever gets aggro can't death pull, as the "monster leader/party members"(even when the leader is killed) will just pick the next target at random.

-Every monster you kill lowers the Attack(but not weapon damage), Magic Attack, HP, Defense, Evasion, and Magical Defense... the level basically... of other monsters of the same type. Towards the end you are fighting sissies that go down in two-three WSes.

-The "Special Monsters"(bird/tiger) all pop in every Einherjar after the death of leader of a monster party. Which you get is random, with exception to Red Bird(I think), that gives the "Weaken monster" message, which one will appear every Einherjar. Brown Bird would cause any living "monster party member" to lose aggro and walk away(where they can be ignored or pick-off one by one). Tiger makes all monsters in the area get stronger in the same way you've been weakening them if it depops. I have no idea what the Sheep does... and the Red Bird gets rid of the bosses' gimmick(aka, Marid spams Curing WS, Buffalo spams throw back WS). Killing them will always result in a treasure box, like Nyzul/Salvage, full of random cool items.

-All bosses work like Chariots... very high Defense lowers the damage greatly. However, you'll need a lot more defense than usual to hit the cap. (I believe Aurik said 500 for chariots? These would be 700-800)

-Again, monsters except Worms don't naturally link with the boss... however, they will still link every 5 mins. They would still easier to kite.

-You only need to kill the boss to get the win(the chest pops)... however you the points you get is based on how many monsters you've killed before popping the chest(they all disappear during the 5 min timer thing). Let's say you get 300 points from killing the boss and 200 points for killing all other monsters(split up between them, so you can stop half way). This is only for Group I of course... Group II would give more for killing other monsters(due to the fact that there are more monsters). Also you must consider some bosses are impossible without killing the red bird(Marid).

These changes would make it less of a zerg fest... but still a zerg fest. Which isn't so bad, now that more than 1 strategy can be used. For people who don't care about points, they could just go straight for the NM and have people wait for the 5 min adds and voke the leader and kite. Kiting could also be used in the lack of sleep. The difficultly it also lowered quite a bit thanks to the "Special Monsters" popping constantly and monsters getting weaker... but a noob group will still wipe and they won't kill fast enough in Group II. So the challenge is still there for making the abjurations rare.

[Kailea]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

here we go....something new, and it gets a criticism good lord cant people be happy with what they get......

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

We could give Einherjar longer than a month before we pass judgement on it. It was clearly designed as it is to differentiate itself from Dynamis, Limbus and other parts of the game. I'm sure some LSes are plugging away at it each chance they get, but I don't think its laid bare to everyone in its current form.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

As it is Einherjar is nothing but one huge zerg fest. There is no strategy outside "sleep" all monsters, kill them as fast as possible, kill the random monster that pops for an item chest or a message that doesn't seem to do anything, then zerg the boss some more.

However, if you get the Marid boss you lose, end of story. Also, if you don't have the right kind of sleep... and enough sleep, you lose. Bombs are pretty resistant to all kinds of sleep, so if you get those... you lose. It's completely luck and only in the bad way. Monster numbers range from easy to don't even bother.

Have you've actually done enough Einherjar to pass judgment? I have, so have others, it's really broken as it is now. It's a major step back in terms of strategy and fun. It's basics are nice though... it's fixable. But the anyone who regularly does or did Einherjar will admit it's the most broken "instanced" activity in the game(comparing to Assault, Nyzul Assault, Limbus, Dynamis, CoP Dynamis, Salvage).

here we go....something new, and it gets a criticism good lord cant people be happy with what they get......

Why would I settle for anything less than quality? It's not like I'm talking about something outside SE's record. Limbus, Salvage, and Assaults have all been very good. But Einherjar looks like it wasn't even tested. The Marid NM is unkillable in every means. I believe they didn't even beta test it and we are the testers now.

Comment on the changes before you comment on how unnecessary they are please.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

As it is Einherjar is nothing but one huge zerg fest. There is no strategy outside "sleep" all monsters, kill them as fast as possible, kill the random monster that pops for an item chest or a message that doesn't seem to do anything, then zerg the boss some more.

Sans the chest, you seem ok with this approach for Merit levels. Now you're crying about "no strategy?"

Spare me.

Hello, I'm Pot. You are black, Sir Kettle.

And yes, I have done Einherjar, plenty of LSes have done Einherjar runs and won.

Its only been out a month, I'm sure there are some things that will be adjusted - just like Salvage, just like Dynamis - before it. Give it some time.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Its only been out a month, I'm sure there are some things that will be adjusted - just like Salvage, just like Dynamis - before it. Give it some time.

What do you think I'm posting? Ideal adjustments to Einherjar.

And about merits... exp is never strategic. SCs aren't strategic. It really makes no difference. This isn't exp though, this is the "fun" part of FFXI.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

This isn't exp though, this is the "fun" part of FFXI.

In your opinion maybe. To others it's something to endure to obtain phatter lewtz. People who are still religiously (bot) camping the three kings after over three years arent' doing so for the challenge or the "fun" of it.

[Necropolis]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Well I do think it's a bit premature to scrutinize Einherjar yet, it could use tweaks.

I like that the mob sets are random, so you can't go in with a TP burn mentality or a Manaburn mentality. If you bring no blm, you'll be screwed if you get elementals, and maybe ghost as well. And the opposite is true that not everything in there can be manaburned.

The Marid is not impossible to defreat, it's not easy, but we did get it our third attempt at him. I think there are some things we don't know yet about einherjar that once discovered it make it more strategic as opposed to zerg fest. But really, an event that can have 36 people in it, do you really think it's going to be much more in depth?

Regardless, it's a fun event and I'm sure will be tweaked as time goes on, but I hardly think we can note it's faults when don't yet know it's inner workings fully. I don't like your suggestion to not have things link. What I like about endgame events is that it's not like things are in exp. Exp in a mind dulling thing I do to do endgame events. It requires stratgy, planning, and being over all prepared.

I don't care for the "you dont' have to kill everything to win" either. It's a new challege. Like dynamis-xarcabard, you have to kill the NM to get to the boss. No you don't have to clear whole dyna zones, but hey, at least it's different. I like it that you have to adapt each time you enter. Dynamis has become a mindless activity because everyone knows what to pull, how to pull it, what jobs you need. It's unchanging and unyielding. Einherjar, you might get lucky, you might not.

I say give it some time, and let some shells figure out what all the messages mean and so forth before we criticize too much.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

In your opinion maybe. To others it's something to endure to obtain phatter lewtz. People who are still religiously (bot) camping the three kings after over three years arent' doing so for the challenge or the "fun" of it.

Kings are as broken as they come... that is not what I meant as "fun" really. Limbus, Dynamis(when you are leading it anyway), Salvage, Assault, ect ect.


I'd have to disagree with there being any real strategy in Salvage. It's pretty much "BRING A LOT BRDS!!". For a long time FFXI was like that for BLM and RNG... but the denpence on BRD has never been like this before. It's simple: if you bring BLMs instead of BRDs, and you get undead, you lose. Game over. Start Warping. There is nothing in the game like that. Of course you can bring COR(uh...) and BLU too, but neither are as consistent as BRD.

Marid's heal move can be stunned... but he gains stun resistance at some point, then it's game over. He'll go from 30% to 100% within a minute.... while everyone is beating on it. I don't believe anyone has ever beaten the Marid. Ever. He's practically Absolute Virtue who spams benediction in parts. He's broken as this come.

I really don't know what you mean when you say "requires strategy". What is this strategy? The bosses are a bit tricky yes, I'll admit that. However, not counting the boss, there is no strategy. The only choices you'll be making is "Oh shit 2 monster types... which do we pull first?" and "Do we kill the special monster?". Outside that, it's a zerg fest. And the HNMs, it's a zergfest too.

Is there a chance Einherjar has some hidden depth? I won't say it's impossible, but we've pretty much figured out everything there is to see on clear-sight. Salvage appears to be much more complex than Einherjar... with strategy and "how do you make X pop?"... and yet people are able to figure that. I have a hard time believing Einherjar isn't shallow.

Anyway, you made a comment on my OP... the first one in the entire thread so far. Thank you. I wish people would be more on topic.

I don't care for the "you dont' have to kill everything to win" either. It's a new challege. Like dynamis-xarcabard, you have to kill the NM to get to the boss. No you don't have to clear whole dyna zones, but hey, at least it's different. I like it that you have to adapt each time you enter. Dynamis has become a mindless activity because everyone knows what to pull, how to pull it, what jobs you need. It's unchanging and unyielding. Einherjar, you might get lucky, you might not.

But there is a brilliance to this you see. Every 5 minutes, the alliance is going to get aggro'd by 3 to 5 monsters. Also, some bosses would impossible to beat without popping and killing the red bird. Finally, it will be very hard to farm when every single monster is trying to kill you. It would make more sense to clear the room first, then boss. Either way, you get options... real choices that make a difference. It isn't just "Route A and Route A". Different strategies for different LSes. Don't have a BRD? Kite! You understand this balance?

[Necropolis]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

I agree for the most part it's just spam kill spam kill, but there has to be somthing to the messages that we get when we kill the random mob. The last stage of Einherjar is yet to be open, so we don't have all the machinations of it yet.

The Marid is indeed killable. But I agree that it is a bit broken. The one time we've killed it we had rdm/drk chainspell stun (only chainspell for recast timers, builds resistance too fast), 2 relic holders and a number of ridell wars in the mix of the melees. I'm assuming this move is TP based, but we don't know if these mobs have regain inplace or at what rate they get TP. I'm thinking a better stratgy would be manaburn him or use mnks and nins for some subtle blow action. Subtle blow is an oft under utilzed trait. Works wonders on UFO's in sea.

You ideas hold merit, but we don't have all the parts yet. I'd like to see some of SE's tweaks to it before we manhandle thier creation and break it ourselves. You comment about us being the test subjects and them not beta testing it may well be true. But if thats the case, isn't that better? SE and we know that we don't play they way they intended (i.e. ninja). I'd much rather them give us a piece of it, see what we do with it, and go from there.

It has a lot of potential, and yes it's probably not too in depth strategy wise (with such a short time in there and no extentions) but I think it has potential. But time will tell I suppose.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

There is nothing in the game like that. Of course you can bring COR(uh...) and BLU too, but neither are as consistent as BRD.

Maybe its you just made a poor choice in wording, but no sleep is more consistant or accurate than Light Shot. None. If you mean BLM, BLU and COR can't spam sleep like BRD, then you're correct.

[Legal Fish]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Maybe its you just made a poor choice in wording, but no sleep is more consistant or accurate than Light Shot. None. If you mean BLM, BLU and COR can't spam sleep like BRD, then you're correct.

Consistent as in reliable. You use Light Shot... okay, you slept one monster.

[Necropolis]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Light shot is nice, but from my experience no more reliable than any other sleep. A properly merited bard with Mary's horn will sleep most all mobs 90%+ of the time. I've seen a Cor's sleep get resisted a few times, though few and far between I'll grant you that.

Bards have 2 light based reliable sleeps, Blms have 4 dark based (no sleeping undead). Cor is not a crowd control player, they are an "opps I got a link let me sleep it" Nor are they dispellers, they're "Oh the bard is busy buffing 4 songs and pulling chain 200". Not to say cor is any less of a job, they are exceptional at what they do, but enfeebling and debuffing is not thier specialty.

If cors were reliable sleepers we'd see more in dyna instead of rdms and blms. I have not once heard "sleep that avatar with light shot, we don't want astral flow going off". Rdms sleep incoming mobs, Blms Overwrite with a sleepga 2. 99% of the time it works. In exp I have had sleep resisted less than 5 times since hitting 75. Capped enfeebling, enfeebling torque, AF1 body, igqira head and legs and capped enfeebling merits and my sleep won't be resisted. So I'm certainly not going to take a cor to Einherjar with the intention of being the sleeper :x

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

Consistent as in reliable. You use Light Shot... okay, you slept one monster.

Horde Lullaby = congrats you've slept several mobs, you're going to die horribly in 20 seconds.

Cor is not a crowd control player, they are an "opps I got a link let me sleep it" Nor are they dispellers, they're "Oh the bard is busy buffing 4 songs and pulling chain 200". Not to say cor is any less of a job, they are exceptional at what they do, but enfeebling and debuffing is not thier specialty

This sounds like its trying to be something clever, but it fails horribly seeing as we have no debuffs or enfeebles, we only enhance the enfeebles that are there already cast by someone else.

Maybe you should know what a job does before you try to define what it does. Burning 200 light cards in Dynamis, yeah, we're so totally not an asset to crowd control. And I won't even go into the number of manteeled BRDs I've sent packing to other camps, suffice to say its fun to see them flustered.

If cors were reliable sleepers we'd see more in dyna instead of rdms and blms.

Uh, there are signifigantly less CORs than RDMs and BLMs and the community is still largely unknowledgable about what COR and BLU are capable of, they're still doing things the old way in endgame because they haven't had enough of the new jobs present to change strategies.

COR + BLM PT can easily keep mobs on lockdown on Dynamis, especially NMs. They have a better chances of stopping Astral Flow from avatars because quick draw INSTANT as opposed to a casting time.

A BRD will buy you 20-30 seconds, BLM and COR will buy you much, much more time.

[Necropolis]

Re: What Einherjar should of been

This sounds like its trying to be something clever, but it fails horribly seeing as we have no debuffs or enfeebles, we only enhance the enfeebles that are there already cast by someone else.

Maybe you should know what a job does before you try to define what it does. Burning 200 light cards in Dynamis, yeah, we're so totally not an asset to crowd control. And I won't even go into the number of manteeled BRDs I've sent packing to other camps, suffice to say its fun to see them flustered.

Too bad you don't know the definition of enfeeble or debuff.

What magic skill is used by blackmages when they sleep a mob?...

ENFEEBLING!

What does Dark Shot do?

REMOVE A BUFF!

Congrats to showing after playing a job 75 levels and then some that you don't know what it's added effects do. /clap

I've seen corsairs in dynamis, and I'm not impressed. Your sleep is nice, but it's on a 1 minute timer. Maybe you dynamis shell pulls slow enough for you to be effecient, but it wouldn't work nice with mine. There are 8 people between my two shells that have 75 cor, and they never bring it because thier other jobs are more effective. Especially when fighting mobs that dispel. Just sets the cor 4 minutes behind in his buff cycle.

You seem to have a hard-on for downtalking bards, and I agree there are many that just level the job to merit. But a well merited bard which the correct equipment is supior to to a cor in the fact that they have such shorter recast timers. So what the mobs wake up in 20 seconds, sleep them again. What are you going to do if the mob wakes up in 20 seconds? Stand there another 40 seconds I suppose.