Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

[Malacite]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Getting back to my THF argument...

If you're going to nerf Sidewinder, you might as well nerf Meditate, Evasion, Shadows, and w/e else as kitten pointed out and take away everything that is unique to each job.

Hell, let's just kill refresh and/or convert while we're at it...


So what if SAM/RNG spams sidewinder? That's what the job combo is designed to do.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

....

Tell me this: Why was Utsusemi changed so -agas would wipe all shadows? Why wasn't that just altered for Ballista? Was it a change made to make NIN and /NIN not-so-invincible or was it to give PLD some leverage in the tanking game?

Whatever the reason was, SE succeeded on the PvP side and failed miserably on the PvE side.

Being able to wipe all shadows with AoE gives sleepers a major edge in PvP since Sleepga and Horde Lullaby open up players to damage. I think that alone makes it entirely fair for me to be able to one-shot a BRD or BLM - they can get me swarmed by every melee in the remote area if the AoE lands.

SE adjusted it so it sleeps could be resisted, but that wasn't ever the issue. Sleep never lasted long once shadows were down, sleep duration was not the issue, it was -aga = rape in PvP.

And you're telling me we need to tone down Rampage and Sidewinder to make things "fair?" Hell no, leave it alone.

And Tonko, Camoflage, Invisible and Hide rendering you untargetable would be breaking Ballista to WoW levels of broken PvP. The claim is made that THF and RNG are too powerful in PvP to start with, yet let them jump anyone undetected? That makes no sense at all. You would have made /NIN the one and only subjob of PvP, as if it wasn't whored out enough.

[little ninja]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Tell me this: Why was Utsusemi changed so -agas would wipe all shadows? Why wasn't that just altered for Ballista? Was it a change made to make NIN and /NIN not-so-invincible or was it to give PLD some leverage in the tanking game? .

Actually both.

Being able to wipe all shadows with AoE gives sleepers a major edge in PvP since Sleepga and Horde Lullaby open up players to damage. I think that alone makes it entirely fair for me to be able to one-shot a BRD or BLM - they can get me swarmed by every melee in the remote area if the AoE lands..

Thats exactly what most of them wait for. Let most the nin /nin get close an hit the sleepaga macro. Then i usually saw another AoE attack of some kind. Or it was a mass ruxh to finish the stronger class fist.

SE adjusted it so it sleeps could be resisted, but that wasn't ever the issue. Sleep never lasted long once shadows were down, sleep duration was not the issue, it was -aga = rape in PvP..

You can add AoE to the rapage catogory. An the lame part is its any aga that renders shadows gone. An faster then you can put it back up they are gone, have others ontop of you pounding away. or hit you with another weak lameass aga. .[/QUOTE]

And you're telling me we need to tone down Rampage and Sidewinder to make things "fair?" Hell no, leave it alone..

Yeah i agree you need to leave it alone.

When i look at it i think ninja is the most gimpest class to play in Ballista. We have 0 job abilities that help us out. Most classes go /nin. So its not like our buff will do much good. The ele wheel is a joke, was a joke, an will aways be a joke. An our strongest attribute is knocked out with 1 aga. Ive tried a few gear set up in ballista. One did slightly better then the other, but the end result was always the same. I tried high def gear, eva gear, str/atk gear, haste set up, an a combo of all.

It to the point i go to them now as bst/whatever. i like to screw with everyone there. Only lame part with that is when i die, so does my pet. It either needs to stay out til its timer is done, or its killed.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I dunno how about we not label it PvP first of all. Because i dont see any Player vs Player setting involved ingame.

Uh... huh? Player vs Player means any time a player competes with another player. SE uses it like this too, look at the latest update notes, "Player vs Player races".

The change just so happened to coincide with the release of the Ballista content. Tell me that isn't a coincidence. I guess this adjustment wasn't made for Ballista just like Goblin Bounty Hunters weren't placed on coastlines to kill fishbots. You don't have to voice your intentions when its pretty clear in the design.

It is a coincidence. They made no other adjustments to PvP. If they picked up on the spamming WS, they would have picked up on how much damage they did much earlier. What isn't a coincidence is that MNKs could get 100 TP after Asuran Fist with Relic Knuckles. DRG/SAM could spam WS, but like MNKs using Relic Knuckles. One to three petras every 20 seconds isn't the same as Asuran Fist every second.

Could you stop with this point? You are really pulling this one out of thin air. It is bad enough it has no point to begin with, because none of my changes make it outside of PvP.

When is Sidewinder not used in melee combat? Why should I be able to Slug Shot, Barrage, Slug Shot and Eagle Eye Shot Maat and drop him in 15 seconds and not be able to do the same with somone in PvP? Why is if fair against a mob and not another player?

...oi.

Okay, first sentence, a lot of the times it is used. Rangers have the great advantage of Ranged WSes. They can fire it from their side of the line. Let's not forget that with these changes, they would be able to be completely untargetable while they fired it, if they have camouflage up and are enough distance away.

First off, Maat is a poor example. He has very low HP. So do most exp monsters. Why it shouldn't be done to someone in PvP? First off, you still can do it to someone in exp... you are only firing two Slug Shots in 30 seconds. If you are not in melee range, you should be able to land the WS fine. Even within melee range, it is not entirely impossible to hit someone with the WSes.

Second, are you speaking about quickly killing someone quickly in general? Well in PvP, your targets usually have 1/5 or less the HP of your average exp monster. Isn't that obvious enough why some WSes/Abilities/Spells need to toned down?

To take a page from our little discussion regarding my guard idea - it would be impossible to change this specifically for ballista without making it universal as well.

SE has changed greater greater mechanics in PvP already. This is getting pathetic.

When BRD and BLM sleep were tweaked for Ballista, they were tweaked in PvE as well, not terribly, but Lullaby hasn't held the same duration since that change.

lol! Do you know how wrong you are? OMGBBQWTFKitty, you are practically lying through your teeth now.

You just gave me the "Tough Luck, Corsair" bit and you expect me to take this seriously? I think its now very clear that you have a job that is unlucky in PvP and you really don't care what happens to the other jobs so long as your job gets evened out, whatever that job is.

I don't see anything broken about the Corsair in PvP. At least nothing I can fix. They buffing jobs who can rely on their guns to get gatebreach. They also have pretty decent sword and dagger skill(second only to THF). If HP is their problem, they they should be happy about BLUs being unable to one-shot them and that there are more Provoke effects to protect them.

Explain to me how this change could be made in the existing PvP environments without affecting PvE adversely? And if can't explain that, tell me why I shouldn't be able to pop two Sidewinders in 10 seconds against a standard mob.

Actually, I'd like you explain what SE is doing right now? Some of my changes are bigger than what they have done, but a lot of them has been done before. Once that cap is put on you, the rules change. Read Lmnop's post about this, since this one is long enough.

If you're going to nerf Sidewinder, you might as well nerf Meditate, Evasion, Shadows, and w/e else as kitten pointed out and take away everything that is unique to each job.

Hell, let's just kill refresh and/or convert while we're at it...

Wow, I can't believe you said that lol. Man, this isn't an argument, it's people flailing about because they heard the word nerf.

RNG isn't Sidewinder. There is more to RNG than just one WS. One WS out of 7/8. You are talking about big aspects of a job. If were to explain RNG it wouldn't be "A Job that uses Sidewinder", it would be "A Job that are the best at Ranged Attacks, have full access to all Ranged WSes, and use the abilities Eagle Eye Shot, Sharpshot, Barrage, Shadowbind, and Unlimited Shot to expand on this strength. They also receive 4 Accuracy Traits and Rapid Shot to increase their Ranged Prowess. They also have Scavenge, Camouflage, Widescan, Alertness, and three Resist Poison traits. They can gain two traits and/or two abilities with merit points.".

And it is one WS(out of 7/8) that is weaken under two specific conditions. Two conditions that clearly harm a SAM/RNG using a Sorobo and wouldn't even phase a RNG with a brain.

Read the OP a few more times before you bring up this point again.

THF's Evasion is one it's biggest strengths. Why would I take that away, as it is an important aspect of that job? Their evasion isn't one WS out of 7/8 and it doesn't need to be weaken during two specific occasions.

Tell me this: Why was Utsusemi changed so -agas would wipe all shadows? Why wasn't that just altered for Ballista? Was it a change made to make NIN and /NIN not-so-invincible or was it to give PLD some leverage in the tanking game?

Oh... my... god...

I can't even... wow.

Okay, I'm going to have to ignore that part of the post, because I think my brain is about to pop. Someone find me a picture of someone doing a face-palm.

And you're telling me we need to tone down Rampage and Sidewinder to make things "fair?" Hell no, leave it alone.

Explain to me how is not fair, because I already said why it is.

And Tonko, Camoflage, Invisible and Hide rendering you untargetable would be breaking Ballista to WoW levels of broken PvP. The claim is made that THF and RNG are too powerful in PvP to start with, yet let them jump anyone undetected? That makes no sense at all. You would have made /NIN the one and only subjob of PvP, as if it wasn't whored out enough.

Hardly, I've only added an ambush element to PvP.

For all purposes, characters with the Alertness(RNG) and Stealth(NIN) traits are considered Sneak during PvP matches. They make no sound while moving.

When Invisible and Sneak are used together, players will be untargetable to opponents at certain distances. This amount is based on what type of Invisible is being paired with Sneak.
Spell: Can not be targeted until 30' (also when preparing for battle, after a death)
Hide: Can not be targeted until 30'
Camouflage: Can not be targeted until 20' (or 25' when subbed) (note, does not require the spell sneak thanks to the job trait)

The maximum range a player can be targeted is 50'. This change allows people to get 20 feet closer before being detected. This can be easily countered with the use of scouts/guards. Someone who stands a bit away from the rest of the group. And checks to see if anyone is out there.

Only Camouflage is very useful. 25' feet is required to make a Ranged shot(meaning you'll be detected by then, but up until then, undetectable, as a /RNG). On RNG main... 20' is easily enough to make a shot. You can also move 5 feet forward very quickly to make a Ranged WS.

But you know what? I'll make a small change. Invisible will be dispelled within 40' feet of a Rook and 30' feet within an opponent's Brennen. Something I missed suddenly occurred to me, players with Flee could use this to score real quickly on a heavily protected Rook if they take enough players by surprise. This change will be found under the section that details the Invisible changes.

Oh sure, this makes /NIN a little more popular. But maybe it should have a reason to be more popular. There is a huge Shadow nerf with this. Any tier III nuke or Banish II clears the shadows of any subbed NIN. A hit and Banish clears the shadows of any subbed NIN. Holy clears all shadows. Jump takes two shadows.

And I think I'll fix a little with COR, since they seem to be the only job that is completely ignored. Elemental Shots now clears all Shadows of an opponent. The clearing of shadows happens before the effect of Dark Shot, so you clear shadows and then dispel something.

Also, all the enmity stuff would be very very nice, but it'd take as much work as programming a new enfeeble or... something. And you'd be adding all these hate mechanics to all these BPs and Jumps... you've even said it before, Legal. S-E seems to have more problems with time than they do money.

Actually, I'd think that the enmity stuff would be some of the easiest things to implement. You just take Provoke, exactly as it is, and slap it on these these BPs/Sic WSes, most of which has a chance of activating.

DRG's Jumps is simply moving the player out of range for a split second. High Jump having a chance based on CHR.

Adding modifiers to Provoke shouldn't be too hard. Yeah, it would take some time, but not much more than making a new spell or WS.

I'd be more concerned about the Invisible changes. That is a big change. I'd figure they work it something like they do chigoes.

[little ninja]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Uh... huh? Player vs Player means any time a player competes with another player. SE uses it like this too, look at the latest update notes, "Player vs Player races"..

Bleh then 99% of this game is considered PvP. You kinda have to admit. it really is a loose interpretation. PvP to me always involved wondering a world with the intentions of being the hunter, An knowing your the hunted. I dont get that feeling from this game. So for me i wont put it into the same cat as pvp. Id more inclined to put it into the same catoogry as Bg or someting. not pvp.

Id like to see special Ballista matches. No sub jobs. No spell Ballistas. I dunno something to spice it up. Maybe new areas. Maybe other ways to hold matches. Throw some npcs in there to fight with us, against us. agaisnt other npcs. lol, Ok i dont knmow about the npc part.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Id like to see special Ballista matches. No sub jobs. No spell Ballistas. I dunno something to spice it up. Maybe new areas. Maybe other ways to hold matches. Throw some npcs in there to fight with us, against us. agaisnt other npcs. lol, Ok i dont knmow about the npc part.

Seems more like a side thing, like adding more rule selection to Diorama. My changes are mainly meant to fix the imbalance in PvP and to make it popular.

[Lmnop]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

And you're telling me we need to tone down Rampage and Sidewinder to make things "fair?" Hell no, leave it alone.

Too late, pretty much all WSs have nerfed effects in Conflict. I'm pretty sure when Conflict was first implemented, it had all WSs adjusted (so this was right off the bat). Multi-hit WSs just got a second adjustment later on. If I had to guess, their successive hits were doing as much damage in PvP as they were in PvE, which is obviously broken. You're a one trick pony and you're unwilling to think of a new one. It's worth noting that Sharpshot should still negate the accuracy penalty, as it always does. Though you could make that a function of RNG main only.

-afaik, you can choose to disable subjobs already in any match you reserve. Disabling spells would be interesting, I suppose, but you may as well have the option to disable Auto-Attacks while you're at it. >.>

[little ninja]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I know it can be done for reserved matches. Im talking special stipulations during regular Ballista. An i havent seen the no spell casting events yet. Curious if they would be popular. Id imagine Melee would love them, An 0 mages would show up cause their aga an run tactics wouldnt work.

If you ask me tweaking Ws for the battlegrounds of FFXi just prove one thing. S.E is admitting that certain jobs have way to powerful Ws vs other jobs Ws. Then again maybe it just proves how useless stats really trully are..