Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

[Legal Fish]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I wouldn't quite call it hostile. Without being able to see body language and hear tone of voice you can only go off of someone's phrasing to get the mood of what they are trying to say on a Forum.

To me, you wording is more arrogant than anything else, meaning no offense.

I would call arrogant going too far with it, but then again I rather be perceived as arrogant rather than hostile.

Here some things you guys should look at before determine my tone:

Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I like FFXI's PvP. A lot of people don't, but some do(especially them crazy JP). You know, at first glance it would seem absolutely broken, but somehow, it isn't. It just has this natural balance.

How is that hostile or arrogant at all? I don't know why people find it a sin to point out flaws. I mean, how will one ever improve?

Are people afraid of the word "intend"? I'm still at a lost.

Well, anyway, finally, someone comments on PvP in a thread about PvP:

Malacite, I'd have to disagree with your points too(well duh, but I mean the new point you brought up about Multi-Hit WSes).

Those weaponskills were made for monsters with over 5000 HP(let alone, higher defense and evasion). Of course they are going to be a bit broken in PvP. I actually agree with this change and nowadays, I forget the days where it wasn't nerfed. Most melee seem to to too. Back then, it was if you had 100 TP, anyone but a PLD, MNK, or RDM was dead. It was basically a TP Burn party.

Now whats this about Sidewinder? I've never seen in it miss. I'm talking 60 caps though... is it that much of a difference on uncaps? Haven't encountered any SAM/RNG in uncapped. Can you please expand on this point?


Edit: Dak, these ideas are only meant to inspire SE and to give them a good idea on what we want.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I have to disagree on a number of points.


Sidewinder's hard enough to hit with as is, leave it the hell alone.

Yeah, whatever you think about SAM/RNG, you would be screwing over every RNG and /RNG that participated in Ballista. After shadows from /NIN go down, RNG has practically no defense to speak of - that's the balance right there. And really, we just got a readjustment in October, why put us over the barrel again?

I don't think gimping every other job just because you think they're too powerful is the right way to go about this. Things like the original TP adjustment took place for the sake of ballista, but it was damaging to jobs like DRG and DRK outside of PvP after that adjustment was made. Sure, it affected all jobs, but it really put the hurt on those two.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Things like the original TP adjustment took place for the sake of ballista,

Don't tell me you mean the WS-TP Return nerf....

That happened awhile before Ballista was released. Maybe even a year before. If you do mean that one, it was nerfed mainly because MNKs with Relic Knuckles could spam Asuran Fist non-stop because each one would give back about 100 TP.

Yeah, whatever you think about SAM/RNG, you would be screwing over every RNG and /RNG that participated in Ballista. After shadows from /NIN go down, RNG has practically no defense to speak of - that's the balance right there. And really, we just got a readjustment in October, why put us over the barrel again?

Well, no, not really. The nerf isn't so much a Ranger one as it is a Sidewinder one. And to be clear, I also mean Slug Shot, I'll go edit that in after this post.

Let's go over the changes:

Ranger and Samurai.
-The accuracy of Sidewinder drops greatly(especially Sidewinder) when used together too often. Something like a 30 second window, where this nerf can take place.
-Distance plays a bigger role in Sidewinder than normal. Being close up to an opponent will cause the accuracy of the WS to drop.

No other Ranged WS are effected by this. That is a very important thing to notice.

#1 nerfs Sidewinder/Slug Shot when they are used multiple times in a 30 second window. I mean, that got to be at least three times. Who uses Sidewinder/Slug Shot more than twice in 30 seconds? A SAM or /SAM(perhaps with 2-hr or wing).

Now mind you, that SAM or /SAM can still use any of the other Ranged WS... or especially for a SAM, his G.Katana WSes. This is just to prevent Sidewinder spam... which is quite sick in action.

#2 nerfs Sidewinder in melee combat. This is a simple Sorobo-SAM/RNG nerf and a light one at that. A SAM/RNG can simply change his target if he really wants to use Sidewinder. A RNG can do the same. Either of them can simply run out of combat, then back in and snipe. I mean that literally. A RNG can be completely undetectable within shooting range with Camouflage.

If a RNG is cornered by a melee, he can just use a WS that isn't Sidewinder/Slug Shot. Or he can Shadowbind, then run back, then use Sidewinder/Slug Shot.

Do you still believe this would hurt RNG (or /RNG) that much?

I don't think gimping every other job just because you think they're too powerful is the right way to go about this.

Err, the only job I gimp specifically is BLU.

And they are still pretty much a PvP powerhouse with these changes. The problem with BLU is, they can just kill people so well and so quick. Full buffed mages drop within three spells, it's sad. They can even kill two or three people at once if lucky. And on top of that, they are masters at enfeebling, healing, and all-around meleeing. See, I don't care if BLU are the best 1v1. I think if you are going to focus on 1v1, you deserve to suffer job imbalance. I simply want to give mages a chance to survive BLU ambush(a chance is all) and for them not to be able to rip through well guarded teams just to two-shot a mage in 2 seconds. This is the not the first place I've suggested my BLU changes and I've received a lot of positive feedback on them.

Otherwise, I aim for smaller job builds that needs a little nip. Some BLU say "Well, if I am so strong, then why is SAM/RNG not yelled at?". I agree, all overpowered builds should face some kind of weakening.

And it's odd, because I only see four nerfs total and a hell of a lot of job buffs... like a 5 to 1 ratio.
-BLU: Mentioned above.
-Sidewinder/Slug Shot: Mentioned above.
-Additional Enfeebling Nerf: Not even a "job" nerf... simply makes those single annoying BRD/BLM/RDM/ect weaker if they repeat the same spells over and over. This way, jobs that don't take enfeebling for granted(as their only means to survive a counter-attack) are not hurt. This can be reseted by "Returning to Camp".
-Steal/Mug: Just treats them like enfeebling spells. Why? Have you ever seen a team use Steal/Mug to it's full effect? I've seen three THF or /THF turn take 6+ petras from one guy in 10 seconds... they hit flee, and they are gone. Considering their timers, if no one uses them in this way, they wouldn't even feel it.


Now I did forget one thing: Add Reraiser to /quarry. Why? Have you ever been killed with 8 petra and gatebreach? I don't care how much you PvP, you will fill a bit shitty about it afterwards. So I edited that in and edited in Slug Shot.

[Malacite]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Try shooting Sidewinder @ a THF in uncapped first.

[Kaickul]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I am not disagreeing with you... buuuut...
While PvP and especially Ballista does need a major overhaul. The stuff you are suggesting is like redoing all the job abilities for some classes. Thats just not going to happen. I dont think PvP was ever meant in the original design for FFXI because they have already nerfed everything in PvP so much thats why most people hate it.

BLMs do not do nearly the nuking damage they would do otherwise. Sleep was nerfed, multi hit ws were nerfed, melee damage was nerfed, debuffs were nerfed... I mean if they took off all the nerfs... PvP would be ruled by MNK/SAM and BLMs it seems.

Right now the top pain in the asses in no order for PvP would be these vicious combos:

RDM/BLM
PLD/RDM
BLU/NIN
BLM/RDM
MNK/SAM
SAM/RNG
DRG/SAM
WHM/RDM

People dont even want to fight these classes because they can either spam WS after WS or you cant do damage to them... at all. If I am running around in Ballista... I dont want spend 10min trying beating down Stoneskin while as a melee I get debuffed into a slug and then slowly beat/nuked to death.

While your suggestions are interesting... I think you are missing some of the main problems with PvP. Namely the very foundations of things like Ballista. The whole point of Ballista is to gang bang the weakest link on the other team over and over again. I can look at the teams for any Ballista match and based on the classes listed above I can tell you who will win a majority of the time. (Skill and strategy still come into play)

I have to agree with others that nerfing other jobs isnt going to fix anything when the whole system of PvP doesnt work well. Besides... nerfing BLU isnt going to allow COR, PUP, or BST to suddenly become PvP masters. These jobs just dont even stand a chance.

My opinion is that PvP cant really be balanced, but can only be somewhat fair by separating classes per match because auto-assign is broken. Mages only, Melee only, mixed melee/mages, and subjob restricted where only certain subjobs allow you to enter.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Try shooting Sidewinder @ a THF in uncapped first.

THF's niche is high evasion... that's what it should be like. Are you having trouble on anything else(except for a NIN)?

The stuff you are suggesting is like redoing all the job abilities for some classes.

Huh? I don't know what exactly you mean by this... but I've only boosted the effects of Job Abilities or give an effect in PvP when it was previously absent.

The whole point of Ballista is to gang bang the weakest link on the other team over and over again.

I don't see how I've changed that. The only thing I've added it making it easier to play defensively in teams(Provoke changes) and for that "weakest" link to fight back a bit. If you are ganging up on someone, they are still going to die. Someone to bind/gravity/stun them and two or three damage sources, that person is going down.

nerfing BLU isnt going to allow COR, PUP, or BST to suddenly become PvP masters. These jobs just dont even stand a chance.

I never said it would? My nerfing of BLU is there only to allow mages to stay alive while being 2 seconds in their presence.

What will help BST and PUP be "PvP" masters is buffing them up. One big thing is, unlike any other job in PvP, their biggest strength is their biggest weakness: getting gatebreach from killing their pet. You don't get gatebreach from surviving a Soul Eater or Thundaga.

Are you talking about 1 v 1? Because I have no interest in balancing that. I don't see how COR is weak in group play... they are a support job with a good weapon, easy to get gatebreach or defend a brennen.

My opinion is that PvP cant really be balanced, but can only be somewhat fair by separating classes per match because auto-assign is broken.

Wait, so the best way to fix something is to not fix it at all? That makes no sense to me, no offense, you are going to have to explain your position better.

You are right about auto-assign though... I intended to put that in but my mind went blank by the end, I should fix that.

[Taskmage]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I'm not the one that moved this and I don't know what the rationale for moving it was, but the main problem I see is that it's trying to address too many things at once. Whether your suggestion is phrased in the form of a question or not, you break the general PvP imbalance issue into many seperate, individual issues when we're only supposed to have one per thread. That said, I'd ask that you not make an individual thread for every problem you percieve, but maybe pick 5 that you think are the most important, or see if you can distill several of the problems you see into a blanket issue and ask a question about that. The thing is, we only have so much bandwidth for how many questions we can choose to send to SE per so much time. If we sent this whole treatise to SE, we probably wouldn't be able to let anyone else's questions through that month.

[Drive]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

They probably moved it because there wasn't an question mark in the thread title. Like how my super awesome thread was moved.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

so much bandwidth

;/ Never have a heard of a forum of this caliber running out of bandwidth because of threads...

but anyway, I don't care if you don't send it. I rather you just ignore it.



I'm going to go and add in an auto-assign fix in my OP. If you are interested, you'll see that in a min.

[Taskmage]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I didn't mean that kind of bandwidth. I meant that there's only so much we can courteously send per time and expect to get answers back.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Don't tell me you mean the WS-TP Return nerf....

That happened awhile before Ballista was released. Maybe even a year before. If you do mean that one, it was nerfed mainly because MNKs with Relic Knuckles could spam Asuran Fist non-stop because each one would give back about 100 TP.

Ballista didn't come long after the TP nerf, I think its pretty obvious they made this adjustment with Ballista partially in mind to prevent WS spamming. It was one of the adjustments originally crippled /SAM as a subjob.

Well, no, not really. The nerf isn't so much a Ranger one as it is a Sidewinder one. And to be clear, I also mean Slug Shot, I'll go edit that in after this post.

Sidewinder is native to RNG, no job can access Sidewinder or Slug Shot w/o a RNG or COR subjob. Crippling Slugshot and sidewinder is crippling RNG and, worse, COR who already does signifigantly less damage than RNG. SE isn't going to repeat that mistake they made with ranged attacks again and COR already has it bad in PvP, why make it worse?

And Slug Shot/Sidewinder is highly innacurate, you need mass accuracy gear to land it pre-70, just like you do with any five-fold attack, tbis one just does 5x damage since Barrage is our five-fold attack.

What you're suggesting here is intended to make all jobs even in ballista, but in the process you're taking out everything that makes those jobs special, which is worse than the current imbalance of the PvP game.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I've added the note about auto-assign in the OP.

Ballista didn't come long after the TP nerf, I think its pretty obvious they made this adjustment with Ballista partially in mind to prevent WS spamming. It was one of the adjustments originally crippled /SAM as a subjob.

Again, wut? The bold text is marked are entirely irrelevant to our current conversation. That involves the entire game, not only Ballista.

Now for this I have two questions:
1) Do you have anything solid at all that would you make one think that SE nerfed WS TP Return based on Ballista?
2) How isn't it because MNKs were able to spam a multi-hit WS non-stop if they had Relic Knuckles(999 delay) equipped?

Sidewinder is native to RNG, no job can access Sidewinder or Slug Shot w/o a RNG or COR subjob.

Thank you for stating the obvious. Also, don't forget no job can access any Ranged WS without RNG or COR subjob.

Crippling Slugshot and sidewinder is crippling RNG and, worse, COR who already does signifigantly less damage than RNG. SE isn't going to repeat that mistake they made with ranged attacks again and COR already has it bad in PvP, why make it worse?

First off, I'm not crippling Slugshot or Sidewinder entirely: Only when they are used in melee combat and more than twice in 30 seconds. Don't forget this, because I think you are.

Why are you bringing up Ranged Attacks, no less an overall nerf SE once did on all Ranged Attacks, when I'm only nerfing two WSes from two weapons under two certain conditions. Normal Ranged Attacks(including Barrage) and every other Ranged WS is entirely unchanged.

So if that COR can't live without shooting Slug Shot 100% of the time, I suggest he:
1. Not sub SAM. (And if he is having accuracy problems, he should sub RNG, or damage problems WAR)
2. Back-up 10' feet before he fires his WS, or fire it at another opponent.

You are going to have to explain in detail how exactly those two jobs become crippled. Because right now, you are just saying it without giving me a reason. I can't debate that.

What you're suggesting here is intended to make all jobs even in ballista, but in the process you're taking out everything that makes those jobs special, which is worse than the current imbalance of the PvP game.

You say "all jobs" when I've only barely nerfed two or three in one tiny area of the entire job. Almost every single job does get a boost however, not matter how small.

You are going to also have to give me reasons and details for me to debate this, because basically your are just saying it with your biggest reason being "just 'cause".

[little ninja]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I dunno how about we not label it PvP first of all. Because i dont see any Player vs Player setting involved ingame. It should be called Ballista or Battleground because thats what it is.

Legal is correct. Tp nerf is the result of the mnk/sam spamming relic nuckles ws over an over. It was a rumor floating around back when Dynamis first came out that a loan Galkan Mnk went into dynamis with the relic nuckles an actually made it thru a good chunk of it.

Some of what you posted might eventually get included. But dont expect to ever see jobs or job abilities tweaked for Ballista. 5 years an way to many jobs later. Its would be next to impossible to attempt.

Blizard has been trying for years now an they still cant figure out their PvP or PvE. An they have been tweaking it since release.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

I've added the note about auto-assign in the OP.



Again, wut? The bold text is marked are entirely irrelevant to our current conversation. That involves the entire game, not only Ballista.

Now for this I have two questions:
1) Do you have anything solid at all that would you make one think that SE nerfed WS TP Return based on Ballista?
2) How isn't it because MNKs were able to spam a multi-hit WS non-stop if they had Relic Knuckles(999 delay) equipped?

The change just so happened to coincide with the release of the Ballista content. Tell me that isn't a coincidence. I guess this adjustment wasn't made for Ballista just like Goblin Bounty Hunters weren't placed on coastlines to kill fishbots. You don't have to voice your intentions when its pretty clear in the design.

DRG/SAM back at this time could spam Penta Thrust just like MNK with relic could spam. This would allow them to totally own in ballista had it not been changed and as a direct result, /SAM ceased to be commonly used as a subjob until Oct. 06 update.

This change was just as much an adjustment made to make ballista fair as it was to change party tactics at the time. It was very damaging to DRG in particular.

First off, I'm not crippling Slugshot or Sidewinder entirely: Only when they are used in melee combat and more than twice in 30 seconds. Don't forget this, because I think you are.

When is Sidewinder not used in melee combat? Why should I be able to Slug Shot, Barrage, Slug Shot and Eagle Eye Shot Maat and drop him in 15 seconds and not be able to do the same with somone in PvP? Why is if fair against a mob and not another player?

Why are you bringing up Ranged Attacks, no less an overall nerf SE once did on all Ranged Attacks, when I'm only nerfing two WSes from two weapons under two certain conditions. Normal Ranged Attacks(including Barrage) and every other Ranged WS is entirely unchanged.

To take a page from our little discussion regarding my guard idea - it would be impossible to change this specifically for ballista without making it universal as well.

Why?

Because Ballista takes place in the same zones you can EXP in. To make these changes, you'd have to create a new field for them to be possible, otherwise anyone in that zone would be imposed with simlilar combat conditions to that of that field. Levels can be restricted, you might not be able to see me, you might find widgets that weren't there before - but its the same field and the jobs on it haven't changed in function.

To change how the jobs function for these fields, you have to change the battlesystem universally from PvE to PvP. Most people realizes this and this is why we are making an argument against your idea. You'd be hitting many players with a nerf bat for the sake of making PvP fair and damage them everwhere else.

When BRD and BLM sleep were tweaked for Ballista, they were tweaked in PvE as well, not terribly, but Lullaby hasn't held the same duration since that change.

So if that COR can't live without shooting Slug Shot 100% of the time, I suggest he:
1. Not sub SAM. (And if he is having accuracy problems, he should sub RNG, or damage problems WAR)
2. Back-up 10' feet before he fires his WS, or fire it at another opponent.

You are going to have to explain in detail how exactly those two jobs become crippled. Because right now, you are just saying it without giving me a reason. I can't debate that.

You just gave me the "Tough Luck, Corsair" bit and you expect me to take this seriously? I think its now very clear that you have a job that is unlucky in PvP and you really don't care what happens to the other jobs so long as your job gets evened out, whatever that job is.

Explain to me how this change could be made in the existing PvP environments without affecting PvE adversely? And if can't explain that, tell me why I shouldn't be able to pop two Sidewinders in 10 seconds against a standard mob.

The WS itself is already highly innaccurate. That's the balance, we've explained that to you. As Malacite stated, fire off a Sidewinder/Slugshot on a THF mob. Hell try landing any shot on a THF, its a bitch.

While we're following your logic, lets just crush THF and NIN's skill rating in Evasion just for Ballista. Its not fair they evade so darn much

I think, overall, we just need specialized, separate PvP fields for future PvP with highly customizable rules. Let the counterstrike brats have their fun with it, make up the rules as they go along.

He killed me with a sniper rifle, therefore, sniper rifles are unfair and we're not allowing him to use them anymore. Oh wait, he got me with the throwing knife now, that's not fair, no more throwing knives. He just clocked me with his fists, that's not fair, I'm taking away his hands.

That seems to be the point of the thread.

[Lmnop]

Re: Oh, SE, PvP system changes please

Kitten >.> You.... nevermind I'll just get to the point.

Because Ballista takes place in the same zones you can EXP in. To make these changes, you'd have to create a new field for them to be possible, otherwise anyone in that zone would be imposed with simlilar combat conditions to that of that field. Levels can be restricted, you might not be able to see me, you might find widgets that weren't there before - but its the same field and the jobs on it haven't changed in function.

Are you serious?!?!?! Almost everything is adjusted in ballista! Melee range, WS range, Multi-hit WS damage, spell effects, resist traits, effectiveness of defense. It all changes. Heck, didn't you see the patch notes in regards to Dread Spikes? "Their effectiveness will be altered in Conflict" or something very similar.

As for the changes, some of them would be very hard/time consuming to program. The auto-sort comes to mind as something horrendous (especially when you think about subjobs) to put together. And it still won't help if you have say... 6v6 matches. Also, all the enmity stuff would be very very nice, but it'd take as much work as programming a new enfeeble or... something. And you'd be adding all these hate mechanics to all these BPs and Jumps... you've even said it before, Legal. S-E seems to have more problems with time than they do money. The BSTs charming players really should be done. Though I think you may as well just streamline it a bit: Charm in Ballista is changed to a 5 minute timer, so no attempting every 15 seconds too. And then from there, like you said, it'd be 5 minutes 'til you could do it again. Every 5 minutes, you'd get a good chance (it should be rather hard to resist, since the duration wouldn't be very long -- maybe another resistance that gets built up) at screwing up the other team for a measly 5-25 seconds.

Net.Drifter, it looks like you just said "We need some of these jobs to be weak so we can have something to pick on." Also, you stated how everything got nerfed but you're forgetting that it's for good reason. Rampage can hit an EM mob for 500-1k damage at level 60. That mob prolly has 3k HP. A player (basically, EM) has mostly lower stats, HP being the big one. 1k HP or even less on a mage. It wouldn't be fair to just one-shot mages as a mnk/sam doing Raging Fists all the time.

The problem with BLU is that they basically "cast" Weapon Skills in a half second. This is horrendous. As much damage as Ancient Magic in 1/9th the time. So honestly, the fact that their multi-hit spells aren't fixed for Ballista is already an exploit. Even if it were treated as multi-hitters, it'd still be rediculously potent. It's not like Blue Mages would have any reason to cry about it.

Omg'kitten is also being blind about the slugwinder debate. You didn't notice that he said a Rng/nin would be able to (under his changes) almost always be undetectable? Stealth+Tonko means untargettable. This should help you land those Slugwinders from the proper range. If you actually read his examples, you'd notice that it's barely a nerf to RNG. It's Sam/rng with Soboro that's rediculous. And it wouldnt' be that rediculous if they'd use their GK Weapon Skills once a blue moon, God forbid. But noooo a sam/rng 60 will have some 10-12 Weapon Skills at his disposal and he'll use one over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ... in about 70 seconds time.

@Dak: when you submit a suggestion to S-E, there's a disclaimer that says "all ideas you submit become property of Square Enix."

Oh also, I agree about the floating things in Brenner. I only played it once and felt like it was more PvE than PvP, because I was constantly trying to stay alive from stupid floating balls chasing me all over the island.