Manned Bot Usage

[Liquidedust]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

It's less of an issue of "law" so much as every time you log on to play, you agree to abide by the terms of the ToS. By clicking that "Accept" button and then proceeding to break the ToS, you're either lying ot breaking a promise, either of which is immoral regardless of the magnitude of consequences or your position regarding the rightness of the rules you agreed to.

I actually weren't referring to the game itself by that comment, it was meant more in a general sense Taskmage since we were talking morals.

However the ToS is really so horribly written that by the ToS definition I am not allowed to use it on Vista. This since Vista have to emulate a WinXP enviroment in order for FFXI to start with (which is by the way the ToS is written not allowed since this is virtually a third-party application).

So yes I break the ToS every time I log in just due to the nature of Vista and how the ToS is currently written, is this morally wrong?

[Neomage]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

/script run .fish

In all serriousness, I don't mind manned botting that much - but there is a fine line between boting and hacking. Anyone who uses a fishing script to catch fish, but reel it in manually, I'm ok with. Anyone who used a crafting bot to load their crystals I'm ok with. But when someone starts nuking fish(insta-reel in, thats the proper term btw) or using a No Wait program to ignore crafting delay, thats hacking.

[Omni]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

However the ToS is really so horribly written that by the ToS definition I am not allowed to use it on Vista. This since Vista have to emulate a WinXP enviroment in order for FFXI to start with (which is by the way the ToS is written not allowed since this is virtually a third-party application).
So yes I break the ToS every time I log in just due to the nature of Vista and how the ToS is currently written, is this morally wrong?

Ok, I'm going to fess up. I break ToS too. I use Vista on my box at home that has FFXI.

This sort of reminds me of the segregation laws in US history. Is segregation morally correct because it's law? Obviously not. Not really apples to apples here but the basis is similar.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Ok, I'm going to fess up. I break ToS too. I use Vista on my box at home that has FFXI.

This sort of reminds me of the segregation laws in US history. Is segregation morally correct because it's law? Obviously not. Not really apples to apples here but the basis is similar.

This is kinda the point I were trying to originally make, we know something is completely wrong but according to the law and rules that are set it is correct and allowed (and even encouraged).

Do we just blindly follow the law and rules that are supposed to regulate our behaviour since it is the definition of right, or do we actively work against it as well as break to the rules to create a change in the law and rules the regulate us?

Or rather; is law and rules really correct just because they say they are?

Either way past midnight here and really not in any conition to have a discussion about such an interesting topic before I have had some sleep .

So catch you tomorrow at breakfast.

[Neomage]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

This is kinda the point I were trying to originally make, we know something is completely wrong but according to the law and rules that are set it is correct and allowed (and even encouraged).

Do we just blindly follow the law and rules that are supposed to regulate our behaviour since it is the definition of right, or do we actively work against it as well as break to the rules to create a change in the law and rules the regulate us?

Or rather; is law and rules really correct just because they say they are?

Either way past midnight here and really not in any conition to have a discussion about such an interesting topic before I have had some sleep .

So catch you tomorrow at breakfast.

No way in hell is something right because it has a position on authority. Just look at McCarthy. Was he right simply because he was a sennator?

[Omniblast]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

BTW, I know there is a whole entire install process with installing FFXI on vista, but... does anyone know of a ETA when SE is going to implement a "easier" vista install or fix? I mean, what do those poor people do that have old discs with used for installation? Are they SOL or will SE provide a "Installer" program to allow them to install it on a Vista build machine?

Part of the reason why I have not jumped the Vista bandwagon was that I did not want my applications broken when I made the jump.

However the Office 2007 does look good and promising, I may get that to stay above the crowd.

Omni, know of any good software vendors that sell vista & office? PM me.

[Taskmage]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

I actually weren't referring to the game itself by that comment, it was meant more in a general sense Taskmage since we were talking morals.
However the ToS is really so horribly written that by the ToS definition I am not allowed to use it on Vista. This since Vista have to emulate a WinXP enviroment in order for FFXI to start with (which is by the way the ToS is written not allowed since this is virtually a third-party application).
So yes I break the ToS every time I log in just due to the nature of Vista and how the ToS is currently written, is this morally wrong?

Yes, again because when you click on the Accept button you're affirming a pledge to abide by the rules that SE set forth, regardless of how silly or poorly written those rules may be. The wrongness has nothing to do with breaking the rule that SE made, it's in breaking your own promise to abide by the silly rule.

[Necropolis]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

I find this discussion quiet fascinating, but keep in mind it's a game and rules of morality are skewed. In most aspects of life where morality is concerned, murder is wrong, but we never have a second thought about killing another person in a game because it isn't real. So many people just associate that game =/= real, so morals do not apply.

As for the ToS, I believe that the vast majority of players have never read them. How many people actually read the "laws" of software before hitting the "Accept" button. Perhaps skim over some key topics covered, but I would say in most cases that people do not read them. I typically think of them as a way of the company covering thier hides when they ban/reject license et cetera. Thier way of saying "We have your legal digital signature that says when you play this game we can come and burn down your house"

I find it unfair that after I pay X amount of money for something, install it, get it running, a box pops up and tells me I don't own it, and that they can do what ever they like with it regardless of my opinion. Where is my option to submit to them my own ToS and tell them what I will or will not do. Yes, I can always decline the agreement, but then I'm just out X dollars for software I don't want to agree too.

More applicable to FFXI would be something like a botter or a windower. I've read the ToS stance on third-party software, but where did SE read where I said that I paid a lot of money for a computer that can do more than one thing at a time. That I would like to listen to my music while playing, or use an Instant Messenger, or browse a web site for a moment with out shutting the game down? I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that "ToS"s in general are very one-sided and leave no room for customer feed back.

But in game I like balance as well. Off-line games I get bored with quickly if I cheat because it takes the challenge away from the game. I would be the same if I "cheated" in FFXI. I suppose argument stems from what everyone considers cheating. Some are obvious, some are on that fine line, like a bot to craft. It would be dependent on who would exploit something of this nature, and who would use it so that they can grab a drink while crafting.

Have I broken FFXI's or other softwares ToS? I'm sure I have unknowingly. Some rules are silly, and I do not apply the same code of ethics to a game that I apply to real life situations. I do not however cheapen mine (or others) enjoyment by cheating.

[Omni]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Yes, again because when you click on the Accept button you're affirming a pledge to abide by the rules that SE set forth, regardless of how silly or poorly written those rules may be. The wrongness has nothing to do with breaking the rule that SE made, it's in breaking your own promise to abide by the silly rule.

Then where is the Accept button with say, the issue of segregation in the 50s?

What conscious decision did blacks have in abiding to those laws? Was being born/moving to that area of the U.S. their Accept button? Or was it being a U.S. citizen or resident of that state their Accept button?

Not clicking on the Accept button means not playing the game you payed for or not being able to live and learn in your state. Both are not possible in sense.

I understand that ffxi is not on the same plane of importance and significance as segregation was but I'm trying to draw a parallel between the two.

[Taskmage]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Then where is the Accept button with say, the issue of segregation in the 50s?

There wasn't one, so I think that's a pointless comparison to make.

Not clicking on the Accept button means not playing the game you payed for or moving north out of the south. Both are not possible in sense.

I don't see the point you're trying to make here. If you buy a Pez dispenser, and then the guy you bought it from says he won't give you any candy to put into it unless you kill a man. Does it justify killing a man for you to be able to use the candy dispenser you paid for?

Likewise, you paid a certain amount for the client software for this game. In order to play it you have to promise to abide by its rules. The fact that refusing to make the promise keeps you from enjoying something you feel entitled to doesn't negate the wrongness of making a promise you have no intention of keeping. So if you're willing to accept having done an insignificantly small wrong in exchange for the privilege of playing the game, by all means go ahead. I do all the time. But don't think that makes breaking promises "right." We call that a slippery slope.

[Necropolis]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Then where is the Accept button with say, the issue of segregation in the 50s?

What conscious decision did blacks have in abiding to those laws? Was being born/moving to that area of the U.S. their Accept button? Or was it being a U.S. citizen or resident of that state their Accept button?

Not clicking on the Accept button means not playing the game you payed for or moving north out of the south. Both are not possible in sense.

Still fascinating me. It has been said that history repeats itself, I guess I never reliezed that it meant it also repeats itself our own created alternate realities. Have we moved the Galkas to a reservation yet, told the mithra in windurst that they can't attend Tarutaru schools, and slain the elvaans by the millions to create a better gene pool?

I agree that hitting the accept button that I have agreed to the ToS (whether I've read it or not), but I don't think that things we deem as "silly" will be changed unless people act against it. If we are mimicing our own reality we know that pleas to SE for a change will not always render results. It will take martyers to get banned and the accounts of innocents to render change in our digital paradise.

Another legal issue with ToS is that of international law and legal age. While a parent had to initial accept and use thier credit card, a minor may be logging in everytime after that. They are not of legal age to enter contracts. Of course the parents would be held responsible, but hard to force the ToS on a child hell bent on breaking it. And to what company am I agreeing to when I hit "Accept"? SE of Japan or an US version of the company? Am I unknowingly breaking laws of my own country by accepting a legal agreement with a foreign affiliate? More things to ponder I suppose.

Sorry if I seem scatter-brained in the post, keep getting interuppted while at work >.>;;
Probably breaking a rule at work now about internet usage. Damn me to hell.

[Omniblast]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

This article was posted back in 2000 of May, but I found it online regarding dealing with minors as contractors.

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_22/b3683155.htm

Q: Can a minor enter into a legally binding contract?
A: A minor [a person under age l8 in most states] cannot enter into a contract that is legally binding on the minor and a third party as an adult can. They're not old enough to make a contract.

Therefore, if someone -- a corporation, a customer -- contracts with a minor, the contract is voidable by the minor or the minor's guardian before the minor becomes an adult and, in most cases, for a period of two years and sometimes longer [after that]. Voidable means the minor or his guardian can elect, for any reason, not to honor the contract.... There is nothing that a third party [someone contracting with a minor] can do to stop that.

Another one

Q: How risky is this for someone contracting with a minor? Can they get their money back?
A: If at the time the minor or guardian seeks to void the contract, the consideration has been converted or consumed, the minor doesn't have an obligation to return the money, stock, or other consideration received. The third party is entirely at risk.

Unless it is food or something that is necessary for the survival of the minor, assuming most of their users are minors, the contracts can be voided by the minor at any time.

[Akashimo]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

This article was posted back in 2000 of May, but I found it online regarding dealing with minors as contractors.
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_22/b3683155.htm
Unless it is food or something that is necessary for the survival of the minor, assuming most of their users are minors, the contracts can be voided by the minor at any time.

So by definition, that makes the ToS to all under 18 players null invoid there by inappliciable to affect them to anything?

[Neomage]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

So by definition, that makes the ToS to all under 18 players null invoid there by inappliciable to affect them to anything?

Isn't these something in the ToS about it binding the minor's guardian or something?

Anyway, if it's not, and the minor is void from the ToS, it dosn't change the fats that your character is SE's property and they can do whatever they want with it, including wiping it from all existance.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Even if that law were to be applied here it doesn't matter. You don't OWN your character, you simply pay SE for the right to have access to it every month. They can do whatever they wisih if they feel it violates their TOS. If you wish to void your contract, SE can wish to void your character because its store on THEIR servers that THEY pay the bandwidth and maintenance for.

So you can argue semantics all you want about this and that, but as it stands SE has the final word on anything, and if they ban for bots, then your not allowed to bot. End of story. While you CAN argue for changes to take place, like maybe have crafting be automated in a sense similar to WoW, or that something needs changing and improving, it'll take awhile to get heard. Especially since SE has no real 'official' forums like how MMO's have official forums on their websites.