Manned Bot Usage

[Omni]

This is just a hypothetical. I dont use nor plan to use bots in any way shape or form. I dont craft nor do I fish for that matter. With another series of bans and gil removal by STFU, this has me thinking...

Is manned bot usage ok?

Of the very little crafting and fishing I've played around with, I got tired of loading materials in the crafting window or battling with fish for several hours. I've long realized that this form of income wasnt for me which is why I dont do either now.

However, do you think its wrong to use a bot to take care of these tasks for you BUT you are always there at your keyboard? It wouldnt provide you with any advantage over any other crafter/fisherman. You wouldnt do any of these tasks any quicker since theres a delay on how soon you can craft again. You wouldnt fish any more effectively either.

I know that in reality, the use of bots will always fail because the hearts of men are the easiest to corrupt (or something like that) but, just for a second, lets assume you'd be attentive to your character for the duration of the time you are using your automated crafting assistant. Is it wrong?

Discuss.

[Taskmage]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Even a manned bot, assuming they still work, has a gross advantage over a normal fisherman in that they don't have to play the game of wearing down the fish's stamina. They just instantly pull the fish in. Definately bad.

Crafting bots I still object to in principle, but in terms of impact on the game I don't really care, assuming it doesn't bypass the timer on how soon you can craft again. Personally I never had a hard time reading a book while crafting or just entertaining myself with LS chat while I did it. Loading the crystal is trivial. The hard part is finding the profit synths, collecting the materials, and posting them at prices that sell for a reasonable compromise of speed and profit.

AH bots then, obviously, I have great enmity for. Someone who sits by the AH reposting their sushi all day deserves to get a little reward for that, but setting a script and walking away for the rest of the day and keeping a stranglehold on the market like that is abhorrent.

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Wrong, no. Agaist the ToS, yes.

[Mhurron]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Wrong, no. Agaist the ToS, yes.

Being against the ToS makes it wrong.

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Being against the ToS makes it wrong.

I think the OP was asking about wrong in a moral sense, not a "Does SE like it?" sense. I don't classify the FFXI ToS as a moral guide.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

In the past, SE's solution for detecting bots has been to solicit a response from the user. If the user didn't respond to whatever popped up, SE could conclude that the user was AFK and using a bot to handle fishing/crafting/etc.

It seems that bots have adapted to this, and create audible (or some other attention grabbing) alerts to let bot users know that they need to respond. This means that SE's old strategy for investigating bot usage is not complete. SE needs to research other ways of being able to verify bot usage. Given the wording of today's announcement on bans, it could be that SE has already implemented a new strategy to do just that.

Whether or not using manned bots is ok / ethical / fair / etc may become a secondary issue. If SE can detect that you are using a bot, manned or not, you are likely facing a temp ban or outright suspension. SE can't count on the honor system when it comes to finding out whether or not a bot is being "manned" or not.

[Mhurron]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

I think the OP was asking about wrong in a moral sense, not a "Does SE like it?" sense. I don't classify the FFXI ToS as a moral guide.

There is no special morality involved, and I was talking about your idea that there was.

Being against the ToS and that you have to agree to that ToS to play, violating the ToS is morally wrong.

[Omni]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

Yea, I was mainly asking about in a moral sense. Obviously, anything with a bot is automatically out.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

I, as a fisher, see the main thing about bots a level 1 fisher can pull up a level 90+ fish.

Why should someone be able to do that, when I, who have put HOURS into levelling fishing (2 weeks between skill ups sometimes happens) struggle to pull in that same fish because I don't have enough skill?

No, fish bots are never acceptable. If crafting isn't for you, find some other way to make money - don't affect those who choose to do it by giving yourself an unfair advantage.

[Omniblast]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

However, do you think its wrong to use a bot to take care of these tasks for you BUT you are always there at your keyboard? It wouldnt provide you with any advantage over any other crafter/fisherman. You wouldnt do any of these tasks any quicker since theres a delay on how soon you can craft again. You wouldnt fish any more effectively either.

There use to be a program you can use to make yourself have no delay in crafting. Basically as soon as the crystal animation was done, you could use another crystal and load all the materials into it, and continue crafting.

That same program allowed you to access your delivery box anywhere in the city. You could stand at the AH and open your del box if you wanted to.

Oh and regarding bots, remember that long time ago when a lot of people were in rabao and botted to catch rusty caps and then use a light crystal to desynth the cap to a padded cap? I remember when there were hundreds of people there, but where are they now? Did they finally get banned? Or can SE's system not go that far back? I wonder...

[Wise Donkey]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

There is no special morality involved, and I was talking about your idea that there was.

Being against the ToS and that you have to agree to that ToS to play, violating the ToS is morally wrong.

Agreed, but I got the impression that the OP was asking in a broader sense than just FFXI.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

There is no special morality involved, and I was talking about your idea that there was.

Being against the ToS and that you have to agree to that ToS to play, violating the ToS is morally wrong.

To play the devil's advocate, the only way to change an unlawful law is to work against it. By your definition it is morally wrong to break that law even if the law itself is unlawful since it is written down as law.

And on the topic yeah I am against bots, even in this case "attended play" botting.

[Necropolis]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

I would have to say that I am against bots, but I would prefer a way of setting up synths. Say I have a stack of crystals and the materials to use all twelve crystals, I would like to be able to just select "Synth 12 of these" option or something to that effect.

You would still have to sort your inventory every now and then, reload supplies, sell your synths and all that on manuel. I would just like to select 12 crystals and how many ever needed ingredients to synth for like 2 to 5 minutes till I run through all the crystals.

I suppose my idea is more like a bot, but to a slightly less degree. But I think that SE could give us something to do that wouldn't require our complete attention on the game at all times.

[Taskmage]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

To play the devil's advocate, the only way to change an unlawful law is to work against it. By your definition it is morally wrong to break that law even if the law itself is unlawful since it is written down as law.

It's less of an issue of "law" so much as every time you log on to play, you agree to abide by the terms of the ToS. By clicking that "Accept" button and then proceeding to break the ToS, you're either lying ot breaking a promise, either of which is immoral regardless of the magnitude of consequences or your position regarding the rightness of the rules you agreed to.

[Omni]

Re: Manned Bot Usage

I would have to say that I am against bots, but I would prefer a way of setting up synths. Say I have a stack of crystals and the materials to use all twelve crystals, I would like to be able to just select "Synth 12 of these" option or something to that effect.
You would still have to sort your inventory every now and then, reload supplies, sell your synths and all that on manuel. I would just like to select 12 crystals and how many ever needed ingredients to synth for like 2 to 5 minutes till I run through all the crystals.
I suppose my idea is more like a bot, but to a slightly less degree. But I think that SE could give us something to do that wouldn't require our complete attention on the game at all times.

Yea, this is sort of what I was thinking of in conjunction with how crafting is in WoW. It'll craft up to XX amount given you have: 1) the necessary materials 2) enough materials 3) enough space in inventory.

I, as a fisher, see the main thing about bots a level 1 fisher can pull up a level 90+ fish.

Why should someone be able to do that, when I, who have put HOURS into levelling fishing (2 weeks between skill ups sometimes happens) struggle to pull in that same fish because I don't have enough skill?

No, fish bots are never acceptable. If crafting isn't for you, find some other way to make money - don't affect those who choose to do it by giving yourself an unfair advantage.

My ignorance to how fishing works apparently has been manifested here. I thought it would take the bot the same amount of time to pull up the fish as well.

I'm sure you meant the last half of your post to be in general terms, but I just wanted to clarify that this is merely a hypothetical that I thought of with this latest round of mass bannings.

I've never liked crafting or fishing, I find that doing bcnm/ksnm/isnm/enm a better way at making money for the time I have to play. Perhaps my OP wasnt clear or that maybe this type of situation is just incapable of leaving out certain undeniable aspects of the game: ToS, fairness, etc etc. Or perhaps, it's a bit naive of me to think that a player would actually use a bot just to only make it more convenient for himself as Necropolis said, rather than to gain an unfair advantage.