Dagger & Sword

[Kyrial Arthian]

Re: Dagger & Sword

Its just amazing how a 300% Viper hits for like 60 and then add a Crit to it and you're looking hundreds...

Several misconceptions here. First, TP doesn't affect damage on Viper Bite; only the duration of the poison effect. Second, the reason SA (or SATA) Viper Bite does so much damage for a THF is because Sneak Attack doesn't *just* make an attack a crit for a THF main; it also adds your DEX score to your main hand weapon's DMG score. And Trick Attack adds your AGI score to it too (again, THF main onry), so that's why the damage on SATA Viper Bite goes so comparitively high. Even if a RDM/THF with the same dagger skill as a THF did a SA+VB on the same mob, it would do a lot less damage, simply because SA isn't adding the RDM's DEX to their weapon's DMG score.

EDIT: Bleh, it looked like there was only one page before I posted this, but apparently there were 2 more... too lazy to go see if someone else addressed this; I'm sure someone did. Ah well.

[hongman]

Re: Dagger & Sword

Thanks Kyrial, didnt know all the facts about VB. I do now ^^

[Renaissance 2K]

Re: Dagger & Sword

Anybody who has ever read 8-Bit Theater is going to choose "Swords".

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Dagger & Sword

Joyeuse is better than Hornetneedle in every concievable way.

1. It hits harder. Joyeuse has a damage rating of 35 vs Hornetneedle's 16.
2. It hits faster. Hornetneedle has a delay of 150. Joyeuse has a delay of 224 but double attacks half the time. Three attacks in two rounds is equivalent to each hit having 149.33 delay.
3. It gains TP faster. Even though Joyeuse's effective delay is slightly lower than Hornetneedle's, it still gains TP per hit based on its listed delay of 224, so Joyeuse gets 6.1 TP per hit while Hornetneedle gets only 5. When Joyeuse hits 300% TP a Hornetneedle would only be at 250%. In the time it takes for Hornetneedle to charge a 500+ damage 300 tp Cyclone, a Joyeuse could've done three 220+ damage 100 tp Savage Blade or better yet four 350+ damage 100 tp Vorpal Blades, since each of those WSes pushes the sword farther ahead in TP.

Hornetneedle was my pride and joy for 27 levels, but "overall" it doesn't hold a candle to Joytoy.

Ah, now I see why I didn't notice a difference. Without parsing, the differences are almost negligible. While you are correct, "overall" I disagree that Joyeuse is absolutely wonderful for what it does. Joyeus is nice. It's good. Its just *not* wonderfully great compared to Hornetneedle. Sorry to say that about the sword everyone wants. I just don't see it that way. I can agree w/the magic defense mobs. I don't remember fighting too *terribly* many of those. The piercing aspect of Joyeuse is quite nice though and I never knew that.

On a side note, its possible to push up the damage of Cyclone in a way with your equipment and still keep MP and things, and at 300TP, you can do way more than 500 dmg w/cyclone. My taru friend, for example, has pulled off 700-800 Cyclones, just in equipment alone, at 300 tp. But, you say Vorpal Blade can in effect do 1200+ damage in the time Cyclone could (which I've seen it do 700-800 dmg.) Are we talking vs EM and greater? Because I am. Sword damage is based on your att, etc. Cyclone is not. Will you do 1200+ damage from WS against EM+? I fail to see that, but if you say so, OK.

IMO, Energy Drain is vastly useful in certain situations. Sword skills do not supply this. Again, the concept of "overall" seems to favor HN IMO.

However, I'd still keep both weapons. They both have their uses, that was never a question for me. I just don't see spending gregorious amounts of time to obtain JT as worth the cost for what it does. But, c'est la vie.

In your defense, I'm playing a Galka RDM right now. With full HP and 300 TP, I can pull off 1263 SW. This is at LV70 and still have 5 more levels to go. If I messed around w/my equipment, I could possibly pull off really interesting SW's. "Now," I can forsee some great interesting differences w/my Galka about sword vs dagger. I'll just have to wait it out and get to that point. W/my Galka, it may be way more beneficial for me to go w/JT vs HN. My previous char was a Mithra.

[hongman]

Re: Dagger & Sword

I still havent got any of them yet....I am taking yet another (possibly failed) break at RDM to get my subs up and a few quests done, inluding HornetNeedle and if the situation permits, Joytoy.

[Taskmage]

Re: Dagger & Sword

I dunno, Shinhiryu. I'll try out both weapons on steelshells and korrigans sometime and get some hard numbers, cyclone with as much INT and MAB as I can get and vorpal boosted normally. I tend to do most of my meleeing vs coffer key level mobs, so that's what my estimates are based on. I'll give you one thing though, not being a dagger is the one big problem with Joyuese from a rdm perspective. I'd trade Gust Slash, Cyclone, Energy Drain and Evisceration for RLB, SW, Vorpal and Savage Blade in most situations.

Point for point stuff:

I don't see how you can say that a difference of 16 dmg and 35 dmg on weapons with effectively the same delay is "almost negligible." That would be like a warrior using a level 1 axe in Qufim and not seeing any difference.

For mobs with innate magic defense bonus, the only mobs I can think of off the top of my head are demons and ahriman. I fight these relatively often to help friends with keys or tests, or to pick up a little quick cash or level my NPC. If you don't usually fight these, I understand entirely and that makes the MDB point rather moot. I think, though, that imps have innate magic damage reduction too, which might be slightly more relevant.

[Celeal]

Re: Dagger & Sword

P.S. Does anyone know if Martial Knife gets more MP from Energy Steal/Drain? Enough to make it worth using despite its otherwise poor stats?

I have a question~ Does Energy Steal/Drain works on non-mp mobs? I have never seen Energy Steal/Drain in action

[Hyrist]

Re: Dagger & Sword

No, if the mob does not have MP, Energy Steal/Drain does nothing.

I prefer a sword mainly. This is just because I also level Blue mage and am serioulsly thinking about leveling Paladin as well (once I have a few meirts under my belt.)

However there are many many uses for dagger that I don't give up on. I do my best to keep both capped at all times.

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: Dagger & Sword

I dunno, Shinhiryu. I'll try out both weapons on steelshells and korrigans sometime and get some hard numbers, cyclone with as much INT and MAB as I can get and vorpal boosted normally. I tend to do most of my meleeing vs coffer key level mobs, so that's what my estimates are based on. I'll give you one thing though, not being a dagger is the one big problem with Joyuese from a rdm perspective. I'd trade Gust Slash, Cyclone, Energy Drain and Evisceration for RLB, SW, Vorpal and Savage Blade in most situations.

Point for point stuff:

I don't see how you can say that a difference of 16 dmg and 35 dmg on weapons with effectively the same delay is "almost negligible." That would be like a warrior using a level 1 axe in Qufim and not seeing any difference.

For mobs with innate magic defense bonus, the only mobs I can think of off the top of my head are demons and ahriman. I fight these relatively often to help friends with keys or tests, or to pick up a little quick cash or level my NPC. If you don't usually fight these, I understand entirely and that makes the MDB point rather moot. I think, though, that imps have innate magic damage reduction too, which might be slightly more relevant.

I'm sorry. At the time when I had it, I wasn't educated that the proc-rate for JT was 50%. I think I read that somewhere else recently, so I am updated. I was eyeballing figures, and it appeared to me that it wasn't that great of an enhancement. Wasn't taking into account that JT was hitting just as fast as HN (if not a second faster) and for twice the damage.

Sitting down and reading verbatim, I see how JT actually is quite better than HN. So, I retract some of my statements. /bow

[BurningPanther]

Re: Dagger & Sword

I have both Sword and Dagger capped at 250. I my Joyeuse and my Hornetneedle, but I my Joyeuse so much more(might have something to do with the trouble I went through to get it). Those two are like a "My Buddy." Wherever I go, they go!

All in all, I'm partial to swords, because no matter how useful a dagger can be, swords just look so much cooler to me. As such, it'll be my Sword skill that I give max merits to.



QUESTION: Guespiere: Keep it, or sell it?

[Taskmage]

Re: Dagger & Sword

If you generally only melee in solo and you already have a Joyeuse, I'd say sell the Guespiere. Joytoy pumps out more damage, and Guespiere's additional effect won't go off while you have En-spell on. If you get to melee in small groups like an exp duo or get opportunities to play the melee/support role, I'd hold on to the Guespiere a while and see how it works out.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Dagger & Sword

If you generally only melee in solo and you already have a Joyeuse, I'd say sell the Guespiere. Joytoy pumps out more damage, and Guespiere's additional effect won't go off while you have En-spell on. If you get to melee in small groups like an exp duo or get opportunities to play the melee/support role, I'd hold on to the Guespiere a while and see how it works out.

Yeah, I did scrape together for the Guespiere before I had my Joyeuse, and I notice that, in addition to the Def. down effect not working in conjunction with En-spells, it's proc rate is almost nonexistent against anything higher than DC. I used to keep it onhand for Savage Blade STR and MND mod, but I've seen the light and take more to Spirits Within nowadays. I guess I'll sell it after all.
New question: Misericorde +1: Keep or sell?

[Taskmage]

Re: Dagger & Sword

Sell it and if you miss having it, put the money toward a Blau Dolch.

Personally, I keep Garuda's Dagger, Hornetneedle and Misericorde around, but I never ever use them anymore now that I have Joytoy. I like dagger ws better unless I'm skillchaining with my npc, but it's hard to argue with the superior DoT and TP gain from Joyeuse. Imo, Blau is the only dagger available to rdms that has a shot at competing with Joy, so that's what it would take to get me to use daggers again. I'll see if I can borrow my friend's and test Blau vs Joy on Boyahda mobs instead of Hornetneedle, now that Shinhiryu's conceded on that point.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Dagger & Sword

I do have to side with Joyeuse. When I do get a chance to melee as COR in merit PT Joyeuse + Gun make for some serious TP gain toward Slug Shots. Now I want a Kraken Club for my RNG. My RNG is jealous of my COR and will not stand for this.

[Armando]

Re: Dagger & Sword

If I'm not mistaken, Joyeuse has the highest DMG/sec on a one-handed weapon aside from Ridill, relic weapons and virtue weapons (w/ stones) and on top of that it gains TP roughly 50% faster than a normal weapon. Blau Dolch is definetely powerful, but I think Joyeuse will win out unless Evisceration does a lot more damage than Vorpal Blade (which I doubt.) Still, I'm interested in seeing the results.