Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

[Lmnop]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

Actually, perhaps a better fix would be to nerf (yes NERF) some weaponskill damage (for the really out-of-control multi-hit and similar WS such as Rampage), improve the damage of most of the weaker weaponskills to fall more in line with what they ought to do and greatly increase the accuracy and damage of skillchains.

This is a good idea. I'd hate to say goodbye to some of my larger numbers but honestly, a Monk's WS damage shouldn't be on par with a THF's. Having a very slight tone-down of many WSs, a (more than) slight boost to less liked WS options, and a very noticeable decrease in SC resist rates would do the trick.

You really don't even need to increase the SC damage caps. If you could be certain that your 600 dmg Rampage would close a Distortion for 360 damage instead of the 40 you usually get, you'd be more inclined to use it. When people compare their E-peen damage parses, the difference per fight is often 1 swing's worth of damage. Being certain that you'd at least make that much damage up via SCs should go a long way.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

A problem I've heard brought up a few times is how some damage dealers can't truly unleash everything they have without risking being destroyed by the monster that would no longer have the attention on the tank, even with voke, a Thief SATA, etcetera.

Result? A bunch of damage dealers got together and said "we can all combined throw so much damage that we don't have to go through the hassle of a traditional party's downtime, we'll just take down the thing ourselves, no matter HOW puny our defense is!"

"But what if that monster actually has the time to hit us before it falls?"

"Well, Mages are obviously out due to the lengthy 'casting times,' and don't even bring up any Fast Casters, as they can still fall due to spell interuption. Further, we'll need a crutch so that we won't die and submit to downtime. MP also attracts downtime, so no /WHM."

"How about /NIN, Utsusemi could take what few hits we have to, and the MP needed to be recovered is nonexistant, so . . ."

And, thus, the TP burn was born. To solve the problem is to allow Tanking ability that tanks SO well, DDs don't have to hold back in traditional parties. IN THEORY, if the Tanks were further built upon for keeping hate, the TP burn won't be needed as much. NO nerf needed. Simple as that.

But, this is all only theory. How it will actually accomplish COULD be an entirely different story @_@ .

[Rastafarian]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

Ok, I've been out of the loop for about a year now so let me ask a question,

SC+MB are pretty much a thing of the past? This is what everyone did when I played and if you sucked at SC/MB then you didn't get invites.

Now people make parties of no mp jobs? No healers at all?

One of the reasons I came back to this game was because of the awesome battle system, which SC/MB was a huge part. This makes me sad =(.

Are traditional parties non-existent? Or just not a lot of them?

I'm leveling War/nin because a friend said that would be a good choice for a fast leveling/desired job, but is it only for this reason? That no one likes mp classes like pld or drk?

I guess if it's the fastest way to get xp, I understand why, but I still don't like it.

[Murphie]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

Ok, I've been out of the loop for about a year now so let me ask a question,

SC+MB are pretty much a thing of the past? This is what everyone did when I played and if you sucked at SC/MB then you didn't get invites.

Now people make parties of no mp jobs? No healers at all?

One of the reasons I came back to this game was because of the awesome battle system, which SC/MB was a huge part. This makes me sad =(.

Are traditional parties non-existent? Or just not a lot of them?

I'm leveling War/nin because a friend said that would be a good choice for a fast leveling/desired job, but is it only for this reason? That no one likes mp classes like pld or drk?

I guess if it's the fastest way to get xp, I understand why, but I still don't like it.

Traditional parties still exist, but the closer you get to 75, the less time some jobs spend in them. Later on in the game you can get by with a minimum of casters (not healers though - healing is always needed) and double up on your melee. So it's generally like, four melee a RDM and a BRD, or two BRDs, or something like that. But for much of the game, traditional parties are still very handy.

Most people do not bother to SC though. It's unfortunate but true.

[Hyrist]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

I want to stop to thank you guys for your maturity during all of this.

I posted this exact thread on Allah, and I've had to change the front post because of the incessant flaming that ensued.

Here I can trust people to state their ideas and opinions calmly and civilly and can really focus on the goal at hand. It makes me feel good that there are places like this where reason overrules mob mentality.


So thanks all of you at DiV, I'm really glad I don't have to mince words with you guys.

[Murphie]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

I'd say "I told you so" regarding Alla, but 1.) I didn't, and 2.) That would be smug of me anyway.

[Neomage]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

Alla is made of lol nowadays. It used to be my primary fourm, but all of the decent people meved to another fourm during the IGE Sellout. However, being made of lol, it does get me a great laugh when I'm bored.

[Hyrist]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

I fully intend on having a rather large list of ideas for Development to work over, to encourage teamwork-based play and the better refined the ideas are the longer they are going to look and consider.

Posting an update on ideas that I have gotten from other forums so far, Allah has finally settled down and began to discuss the ideas at length, bouncing ideas back and forth and developing off of ideas already laid out.

Which so far leads 3 major ideas to rewarding party style play.

1)

A direct exp % based bonuses for skillchains and magic burst within the course of a battle.

- 5% bonus is rewarded for skillchains, and magic bursts by number done.
- Only skillchains and magic bursts done between more than one person (including pets) count towards the bonus.
- Damage done with skillchain's and magic burst may include additonal bonuses (Based off of % of damage dealt.)
- A 'soft cap' at a currently undefined percentage is implemented to prevent overuse of this bonus from being overly exploitable.

2)

Bonuses for completing specific 'tasks' within the course of a fight.

For every mob, there is a +30% exp bonus cap. Now there are many ways to get the xp bonuses and even TP burns could obtain it too. To obtain the bonuses, you have to complete a "Teamwork Task" or "Skill Task" which grants various amounts of bonuses. Each bonus could only be applied once per fight and not to back to back fights(you'd get the +0.5% for the Weapon Skill Task for this fight but the next one would not apply. The fight after the next would though.)

Weapon Skill Task would require a certain percentage of overall damage to be done by WSs(around 20%) and would provide a +0.5%xp bonus.

SkillChain Teamwork Task would require at least one skill chain to be performed on the mob and give a +1%xp bonus. If you get a 3-way SC or more then you add a +1%xp to that.

Magic Burst Teamwork Task would require at least three magic bursts during the fight and provide +5%xp bonus.

Sorcery Skill Task would require a certain percentage of overall damage to be done by magic (around 15%) and would provide a +2%xp bonus.

Pet Training Skill Task would require a certain percentage of overall damage to be done by pets(maybe 10%) and provide a +2%xp bonus.

Job Ability Skill Task would require the succesful use of at least 1 utility skill such as Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Super Jump, Cover, Steal, Mug, Chakra. This grants +0.5%xp bonus.

Now you get into tougher stuff that gives larger bonuses.

Weakening Skill Task would require the enemy to be debuffed for a certain percentage of the battle(around 75% of the duration of the fight) would provide +2%xp bonus. Absorb-Stat spells would be included.

Enfeebling Flair Teamwork Task would require the enemy to be debuffed by at least 8 different enfeebles for a certain percentage of the battle(around 50% of the fight) and would provide +3%xp bonus. Anymore debuffs over 8 provide a +0.5%xp bonus in addition to the 3%. Absorb-Stat spells would be included as debuffs for this bonus.

Empathy Teamwork Task would require a certain amount of healing during the fight. The amount would scale depending on level and would grant a +3%xp bonus. I'm not sure how much would be fair but it would be more than what a Nin would get hit for during a fight normally and also enough to the point that a Whm would be best fit to perform efficiently without slowing down the party. A Pld would probably fulfill this requirement by just doing their job if the team doesn't kill the mob too fast. Draining spells and abilities would be included.

Cunning Skill Task would require a certain amount of the enemy attacks to be evaded, parried, shielded, guarded, countered (around 30-40 total but probably more) and would provide a +0.25%xp bonus.

Cunning Teamwork Task would call for the enemy to be evaded, shielded, parried *AND* countered during the fight (one each) and provide a +5%xp bonus.

Guardian Skill Task would require a single team member to keep the attention of the enemy the entire fight, making sure no one but himself takes direct damage. This provides a +5%xp bonus.

3)

Basically, you just need to be able to engineer a mob that is technically level 89, but can be killed with not much more than a good SC, a Burst and a few nukes, able to be chained up to #5. Level 89 mobs give ~250xp per kill base, and let's say that these mobs can be killed every minute and a half. One chain #5 would take 9 minutes to complete, and would grant (with chain bonuses) ~2000xp. That's ~13k xp/hr (~15k/hr with Sanction, ~22k/hr with Dedication - obviously not feasible). Make the mobs level 90 and you'd get ~14k/hr before Sanction. Drop the kill time to 75 seconds instead of 90 seconds for a lvl 89 mob, and you'd be getting ~17.5k/hr with Sanction. A zone with the same number of these mobs as are present in Caedarva on 5 min respawns would support twice as many parties, with zero competition for prey, so that 17k/hr would be guaranteed.

The ideas are really getting rich now, let's see if we can build off the one's we have.

[Icemage]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

The monsters would not have to be level 89+ (and in fact, that would be effectively impossible to XP on). Fafnir is level 90, and trying to hit, much less damage, him is a serious chore for anyone who isn't heavily merited.

I seem to recall that a few monster types actually yield more XP than their level would indicate. I can't for the life of me remember where I saw the numbers posted, but they're available someplace. I do remember Antica give something like 10% more XP than they ought to, based on level, and there were other enemy types that had mild XP multipliers too.

In reality Qutrub-type monsters are exactly what you're talking about. I don't know if they have the XP multiplier, but they take double damage from weaponskills and nukes. Sadly, not many people go after them since they have a rather large and annoying bag of tricks in their arsenal.


Icemage

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

I seem to recall that a few monster types actually yield more XP than their level would indicate. I can't for the life of me remember where I saw the numbers posted, but they're available someplace. I do remember Antica give something like 10% more XP than they ought to, based on level, and there were other enemy types that had mild XP multipliers too.

Experience Tables at Somepage
At the bottom of the page is a table of mobs that provide bonus experience. I don't see Antica listed in there, though.

[Karinya]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

Somepage's tables are (as they acknowledge at the bottom) merely translations of the ones at Vana'diel Monsters, except for the addition of yovra to the "monsters that give bonus exp" list.

Anyone who wants to exp on yovra for their bonus exp is, of course, free to do so. XD

Given that general nastiness seems to be the main requirement for making the list, I'm kind of surprised soulflayers, poroggo and wamoura adults aren't on it, but maybe that's just because information on them isn't known.

Imposing the same effect in reverse to some of the most pathetic monster families (imps, colibri) might even up exp between some different setups and camps a bit, but of course people are going to whine about that.

[Malacite]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

I agree with the hate thing.... PLD really should be able to just utterly lock down a mob and take very low damage per hit, while say the Dark Knight has a field day on the mob. DRK is one of those jobs that rarely gets to go all out, if ever. But when it does, holy crap...

[Aeni]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

I agree with the hate thing.... PLD really should be able to just utterly lock down a mob and take very low damage per hit, while say the Dark Knight has a field day on the mob. DRK is one of those jobs that rarely gets to go all out, if ever. But when it does, holy crap...

This is why I don't like the fact that provoke, arguably the single most effective hate grabbing tool in the game, can be abused by NIN mains to tank as well, if not better, than a paladin.

I think itemization should also be included in this game. Changes with shields was a first step in the right direction, but that is not nearly enough. While a NIN's main forte is to not take a hit (We're not talking just Utsusemi here) a pally's should be absorption of the damage and reduction of said damage. If this means making it so that there's even more heavier armor available in this game that ONLY paladins and warriors can use, then so be it.

As it is right now, TP burn is nothing but an exploitation of a mechanic that is heavily flawed in favor of melees with the amount of health/armor reduced on these new monsters (and additionally, with new and improved spiffy spawn rates!) You could even say that SE intended for this to happen.

[Raydeus]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

Sentinel was a good adition, but because of the limited time it's active and because of the long recast it becomes a situational toy.

What PLD needs is a Defender kinda ability, or simply make Sentinel work like Hasso, with a short recast and a long effect time.

Make it so the PLD loses Evasion and Att in exchange for the reduced damage taken and a negation on Emnity loss with Shield Blocks or something that allows PLD to really be able to tank IT+ efficiently, so regular parties can XP on ITs again without the huge downtimes it implies because of all the MP waste.

[Karinya]

Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

Actually, fighting ITs doesn't necessarily involve huge downtime if your party knows what they're doing. (Well, unless you consider 10 seconds "huge") What it *does* involve is longer *fights* - IT's don't just roll over and die like wImps. Additionally, areas with IT mobs don't have the ultra-short pop times of Caedarva/Zhayolm/etc., so by the time you get to #5 the puller may have to go quite a ways to find the next mob.

But the thing that really kills IT parties is that although their mobs are more than twice as tough, and take more than twice as long to kill, they're worth maybe 50% more base exp than the weak mobs burn parties kill. Or less. It all comes back to the exp system again. Weak mobs are worth a lot of exp relative to their difficulty, while mobs that are much more difficult are worth only slightly more exp.

That's why the best party in the world in Uleguerand Range isn't going to come close to the average Caedarva massacre. The exp system is against them, and that's an enemy even the best party can't defeat.