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Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

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  • Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

    I have an Idea I wish to send to Square Enix to regard the growing problem of TP Burn parties, or rather the lack of support for "Normal" parties which is causing this TP Burn obsession. Constructive input is appreciated

    Originally posted by Explanation and Motivation

    So I was in the KI blu forums discussing random things when the mention of TP Burn parties came up.

    Of course you had your typical back and forth about Anti-Burn groups and Burn groups, when an idea came to mind on how to 'even the score' between normal and burn exp/hour.

    Why?

    Because current TP burn parties are beginning to outbalance game mechanics. Certain jobs are being isolated out of the exp flow in favor of less MP dependent offensive jobs which is in turn causing an imbalance in jobs in endgame and those jobs at endgame who have merit development.

    Additionally, because of the style of burn parties, the ideas Square Enix wishes to place as prominent themes of the game (Team work, coordination, and a variety of enjoyable means of playing.) are suffering a loss in lue of the mindless Weaponskill Spamming era the TP burning parties are creating.

    Additionally, because of these burns, fewer players are refining their individual skills as per their jobs, leaving them less ready for the more centralized tactics used in some very tough endgame situations.

    Despite the advantages many melee and damage dealing jobs are receiving, Burn parties are becoming a serious problem. If SE wishes to continue to promote it's open ended ideals for varied parties and tactics, something must be done.

    Proposed Solution:


    "A little off the top"

    A small reduction in the amount of extra exp gained per chain will assist in toning down some of the exp/hour ratios in burn parties. The idea is to push down the idea that killing fast and furious will bring less of an attraction of non-mp based jobs, giving a bit more incentive to take part in the second aspect of this change to the way Exp could be made.


    Play Bonus, A reward for playing like a team:

    The real solution is to help bring up the level of exp gained by a normal party. This can be done by granting exp bonuses for skill chains and magic bursts.

    A good way to encourage both in this would to set it up on the level that bursting a skillchain adds more exp to the play bonus. For example, say creating a level 1 skill chain adds 20 exp to the play bonus of that fight. Bursting on that would add an additional 30 totaling for 50 extra exp. (Grossly exadurated numbers for a lvl 1 skill chain but none the less you get the idea.)

    Of course there would have to be reducers. For example, the skillchian and bursts are a larger bonus, but the following are at a reduced rate (Additional Magic bursts off the first give an extra 3 exp as opposed to 30.) This will help prevent exploits from groups trying to over-burst certain aspects but at the same time keep the rewards going for additional teamwork in a fight.

    Another factor to save on exploits is that the play bonus calculates separately form the exp chains, and just added directly onto the total. This keeps numbers in high exp chains from skyrocketing due to this addition.


    Some implications of this:

    While the nerf on chains will bring down the exp in a burn party, the play bonus will encourage skillchaining. Proper use will more than make up for the chain loss, keeping those melee heavy parties happy, and better yet, learning to work together.

    Soloing Exp will gain a small rise with the use of your "Fellow", making solo play a bit more entertaining and profitable. (Puppetmasters will love this update.) Duoing for small bits of exp will also become better.

    Bsts will again have some difficulty chaining for exp, but receive the same bonuses as per fellow. Moreover, this will encourage ideas for Bst to take part of duos or even Trios.

    Partial parties (Dos Trios) can gain exp together by killing toughs for skillchains, etc, making some targets that may have not been good for IT or VT become some easy Duo-Trio targets as toughs.

    Last but not least-
    This will encourage players to work together, as a team. The better a group gets at skillchains and magic bursts the faster the exp flow will go in. Working it so not only killing the opponent quickly, but doing so by working together as a group will steer the player mentality away from the died in the wool "hack and slash" attitude it seems to be falling into, and better, provides a good foundation for novice players to learn to work together, and skillchain, because the rewards for it are immediate, and now worthwhile.


    In Conclusion:

    In the end the development department will have some kinks with coding to work it, but I believe it would be a great way to encourage more interactive parties while not seriously harming the methods people enjoy now. Just keeping things on a level playing field is the key here.

    However, before I make this submission, I would like some input from my forum pals and fellow gaming community. Perhaps we can work together some refinements on how this can be done and save the Development Department a little work in the process. After all, the more refined this idea sounds, the more likely SE will be to use it.

    Thanks all for your time.

    Art done by Fred Perry.

  • #2
    Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

    I don't personally think TP burn is a problem and I think SE would have many angry players on their hands if they 'nerfed' TP burn. I'm pretty sure that SE wants us to be able to get faster XP. This is likely the reason the placed so many low HP, fast respawn, VT @ 75 mobs in the areas they did. I really don't think it was an accident.

    The only issue is the handful of jobs that don't fit into a TP burn mold. Beyond that, the problem is people that only like to play in a certain group. This isn't a new problem brought on by ToAU. This is an age old problem. Remember when BLMs used to all but rub manaburn in people's faces? It used to be manaburn or KRT onry, so really it's a mentality of just wanting better XP than there being a problem.

    Beyond that, there is currently ZERO incentive to fight IT++ mobs with enough HP to even warrant SC+MB. The best way for SE to add something for 'standard' PTs is for them to raise the XP/mob cap. If there were mobs that had a lot of HP and gave 300 or 400 base XP, then you would have the makings of a situtions where standard PTs could XP at levels comparable to TP burns.

    Such mobs would have too much HP to be taken on by a TP burn PT. It also solves the problem that there currently aren't any mobs that can live through a SC+MB enough to warrant the use of BLMs in standard PTs.

    Perhaps adding some type of bonus for SC and MB is good, but somehow nerfing TP burn is a bad idea.


    EDIT: Another note is that all of the unpopular jobs are also holding out for TP burns. They are also part of the problem because there can be 20-30 people lfp that could easily make a standard PT, but most of even the unpopular jobs DON'T WANT TO. They want to get into a TP/mana burn in the same 2-3 areas that the other 90% of the game is XPing in. They aren't smart enough to go take a camp in an old area. Meanwhile, while they refuse to take any other invite, they complain about TP burn PTs.
    A Day in the Life of a Taru

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    • #3
      Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

      Agreed, Yeargdribble. If they want to "fix" the situation, then they are better off providing more of a bonus to mobs that die too slowly for a TP burn party. But nerfing TP burn isn't the answer.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

        or rather the lack of support for "Normal" parties which is causing this TP Burn obsession. Constructive input is appreciated
        I'm prasing myself wrong here I beleive. I'm focused more on the exp bonus to help the varied partes and help jobs like Black Mage and Paladin keep up with the TP Burn community that seemingly dominating the exp flow nowadays.

        Art done by Fred Perry.

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        • #5
          Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

          I really like the idea of giving XP bonuses for skillchains and magic bursts.

          Maybe something like:

          +5% XP for 1 skillchain, plus 5% for each additional "chained" skillchain. If you use Fast Blade > Red Lotus Blade (Liquefaction) +5% > Combo (Fusion) +5% you'd get a +10% bonus overall. Adding more un-chained skillchains should not yield more XP.

          +5% for each magic burst. I don't consider this to be terribly abusable (seriously, how many bursts are you likely to see in a fight?). Bear in mind that infini-chain parties are currently earning +50% xp on every fight. And hey, this makes Dark Knights pretty cool!


          Icemage

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          • #6
            Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

            Yeah im in agreement with most people here, dont nerf but bonuses are very welcome, i like icemages idea of getting better bonuses for skillchains ontop of skillchains, samurai pro skillchain burn pts anyone? lol

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            • #7
              Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

              An issue on another fourm came up about sam-burns becomming an exploit.

              Is there something we should consider about using various jobs or do you think it won't take.

              Art done by Fred Perry.

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              • #8
                Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                In what sense? If you mean having specific job setups in a party to get the bonus, then I'd be adamantly against that.

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                • #9
                  Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                  I don't see why SAM-burns are any worse than WAR-burns are now. See my above suggestion. Any burn party is at most going to perform 2 skillchains per kill, and almost never in a chain sequence, so at most they'd earn +5% above what they're getting now on average.

                  Compare to a traditional party, who, with, say a RDM and BLM and DRK, might be getting 3 magic bursts on a skillchain, which is a consistent +15-20% if everyone hits their MB consistently.

                  It still doesn't address the problem of 20k/hr merit parties, but it's at least "a" solution and an improvement over the status quo.

                  One problem I do see with my variant suggestion is that people will be randomly bursting all kinds of weird spells just to magic burst them for the bonus XP (this could be bad if your BLM decides that magic bursting Blizzard and Water for +10% off of Distortion is better than bursting Blizzard III to kill the monster...).


                  Icemage

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                  • #10
                    Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                    Very true.

                    What about scaling up. For instance say the percentage rate rises depending on the level of skillchain you use, and have that filter over to bursting on that chain?

                    A note on Icemage's mention of a 'Problem':

                    I don't see that being a trouble as BLM's are typically nukehappy and like to kill things. This wont break the common attitude of a party and people will manage to balance rate of kills with skillchaining. Remember, one still manages to gain the exp chain's bonus on top of this new one, so killing things at a decent rate will still be a factor.

                    Moreover, this will encourage things like DRK and RDM to burst. Say if a RDM bursts an enfeeble during a recast, that actually CONTRIBUTES to the exp gain far more than immediatly casting it back.

                    Additionally, say for the odd sake that you are exping on undead, Banish levels from a whm can be bursted off fusion. And Holy will have a use again for it's fast cast and easy to burst.
                    Last edited by Hyrist; 01-21-2007, 06:01 PM.

                    Art done by Fred Perry.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                      Originally posted by Icemage View Post
                      One problem I do see with my variant suggestion is that people will be randomly bursting all kinds of weird spells just to magic burst them for the bonus XP (this could be bad if your BLM decides that magic bursting Blizzard and Water for +10% off of Distortion is better than bursting Blizzard III to kill the monster...).
                      The xp bonus could be proportional to damage (and/or the HP%) dealt to the mob, that way if you do a 3 folded light SC with 2 little MBs and one big MB then you'd have a 6 hit combo+damage bonus, which should be rewarded with a nice xp bonus in the end.

                      That's the kinda stuff I'd like seeing in game. It would give people a great incentive to work as a team and to actually pay attention to what's going on in the party.
                      sigpic
                      "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
                      Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

                      その目だれの目。

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                      • #12
                        Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                        Or, you know, they could just realize that killing it faster is a bigger bonus. >.> But even so, I would definetely prefer to have the bonuses based on % of damage done with the SC and MB.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                          I don't like the thought that a specific player in the party will get chewed out for messing up a SC, and causing the rest of the members to miss out on exp. Right now, if a player messes up the SC, maybe the fight lasts a little longer and the chain starts over. But whether or not the exp chain got broken because of the missed SC isn't that obvious. But under this bonus system, it will be apparent when a missed SC, or even whiffed WS, causes the party to miss the play bonus.

                          As far as toning down the chain bonus, I am not at all happy with that part of the "solution". This will hurt soloing BSTs. Saying they can rely on adventuring fellows is not a solution to this. Adventuring fellows only last for a small period each day. And I doubt the SC bonus would benefit duo/trio BSTs parties. BST parties save their TP for fight-ending flurry of damage an instant after releasing pets.
                          Lyonheart
                          lvl 75 WAR, 75 BST, 75 BLM, 75 NIN, 47 SCH
                          Cooking 100.0+3+3, Culinarian's Signboard, Raw Fish Handling, Noodle Kneading, Patissier
                          Fishing 60

                          Lakiskline
                          Bonecrafting 100.0+3+3,
                          Leather 60+2, Woodworking 60, Alchemy 60
                          Smithing 60, Clothcraft 55, Goldsmithing 54.1, Cooking 11
                          Boneworker's Signboard, Bone Purification, Bone Ensorcellment, Filing, Lumberjack, Chainwork

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                          • #14
                            Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                            Originally posted by LyonheartLakshmi View Post
                            I don't like the thought that a specific player in the party will get chewed out for messing up a SC, and causing the rest of the members to miss out on exp.
                            If you want high xp and chains you gotta play skillfully and pay attention, I don't think anyone will complain about a player the misses the SC or the MB once, but if the player doesnt pay attention or simply sucks at playing then they will have a problem.

                            It's not that bad, but I really like the thought of actually rewarding skill and attention in party play.

                            And like I've said before Burn parties are very demanding about that, a player who doesn't pay attention is easily spotted and can hurt xp flow really bad so this wouldn't be very different.

                            If parties play their cards right they would be able to make more xp than burn parties, but at the cost of every member in the party having to play skillfully.

                            I think it's a fair trade.
                            sigpic
                            "In this world, the one who has the most fun is the winner!" C.B.
                            Prishe's Knight 2004-Forever.

                            その目だれの目。

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                            • #15
                              Re: Idea Refinement: "TP Burn Solution" (Play Bonus)

                              The very real problem with TP burn is pretty much the same problem we've had in this game from the beginning - elitism and community extremes forcing players into levelling jobs they may not want to level or are not serious about.

                              Thing is, its brought the problem to a new all-time high. We have waves and wavs of the lolWAR and lolMNK. Sure some play those jobs seriously, some just play them because they are popular and some just play them for merits. And while there's nothing wrong with any of that, but its still making people to take the long way around.

                              So if PLD is your favorite job and really the only one you wanted at 75, then you either stuck it out with the slow invites or level BRD, RDM, WAR, NIN or MNK to satisfy the masses. This is a good thing? I don't think so.

                              I'm fortunate one of my jobs falls into the neat little spectrum of Burn PT invites, so getting merits is no worry for me, but is a problem for plenty of people.

                              I will say the new Thickets camp skews to some different jobs. I definately think PLD, DRG, SAM, RNG and THF are better in that camp than NIN or WAR. Why? DRG and DRG have accuracy traits, mobs are weak to piercing. Greater Colibril eat food, so those accuracy traits help out. Also PLD can tank a link better than a NIN could there.

                              WAR just seems to flial and miss at this camp, though MNK still seems to fare pretty well.

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