Tired of /nin

[Omni]

Re: Tired of /nin

the damage avoidance is just too good. sure nerf utsusemi if you want to get people to sub other things, but then you hurt nin as well.

i think SE has began to go the right way by making other jobs more useful as subs. they did a great job with /sam imo. I'm finishing off my sam sub so I can sub it full time to my rng. if they can make say, /mnk more appealing than just having boost and some max hp boost im sure people would give it a shot.

And with a 24 War, nin shouldn't even be considered. Mnk would be FAR superior for *main* tanking, let alone back up voking, as well as helping to increase your DD potential. Dual axes suck at those lvls and sturmwind is FREAKING AWESOME.

However, many pt's run dual tanks. dual tanks are the best and most efficient option until 40 if you can grab a nin or war/nin or any combination of the 2, and pair them up. Just because you sub /nin that doesnt mean you need to dual wield. You can still use g.axe as a /nin sub and let go of sturmwind.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: Tired of /nin

Just because you sub /nin that doesnt mean you need to dual wield. You can still use g.axe as a /nin sub and let go of sturmwind.

LIES!!! ALL LIES!!!!



Seriously, people seem to be unaware of this.

[Ziero]

Re: Tired of /nin

Shared hate means shakey hate at those lvls and shakey hate can mean a one shotted mage. Though dual nin/ - /nin tanks can be good, unless the pt is up to par it only hurts in the end. Many times I found while lvling my nin pre-37 that my tanking partner wouldn't be up to holding hate while keeping shadows up and someone else would end up tanking in their stead. I prefered to solo tank, even as a low lvl nin, as it meant preventing a stray screwdriver or stomp to my mages thus knocking them out in one hit. And with things like crabs, crawlers and mandies being choice lvling mobs, war/mnk is a surperb solo tank.

But then again as easily as I discount dual tanking due to lack of skill, others can discount war/mnk tanking with the same reasoning. In the end your sub doesn't matter as much as your skill. Your sub is just a tool to assist you in your main job's function, and like any tool it needs decent knowledge to be at it's peak effectiveness.

[Omni]

Re: Tired of /nin

shakey hate is for any job below 40. however, the good thing is that provoke will pull hate in 95% of all instances. having 2 provokes has proven to be more than enough, save times when mages ds-curaga or something extremely stupid during pt.

my only problem with war/mnk is that its an mp sponge. hate is good with war/mnk but you soak up so much mp its ridiculous. throw in a novice whm w/ only ok gear you'll run out of mp in 1-2 mobs.

[Theyaden]

Re: Tired of /nin

Thankyou for pointing out the int bonus Yeargdrible I hadn't realized that and cheched it out. Statwise nin comes out ahead of whm for int, but summoner (if anyone will allow you to sub it beats both, but in both you lose healing ability).

I'll agree there are good situations for using the ninja sub. Puller on quick mobs, warrior tanks,merit parties (I've heard haven't goten to try this). Early levels as an Elvan the extra mp makes a big difference. A taru will probably find it less limiting. I used level 20 because it's an easy level for people to verify through 20 cap events.

Elvan Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHA
blm/whm 20 285 179 21 21 20 19 22 24 21
blm/sum 20 274 200 20 21 19 20 24 24 22
blm/nin 20 290 155 21 23 20 21 23 21 20

Taru Level HP MP STR DEX VIT AGI INT MND CHA
blm/whm 20 203 263 15 22 17 24 30 20 21
blm/sum 20 192 284 14 22 16 25 32 20 22
blm/nin 20 269 176 17 29 17 27 26 17 17

My point is that while a good play can make a lot of things work I try to suit my subjob to what is needed. When playing blm if the mob was turning toward me I'ld lower the tier of one of the nukes I was cycling to reduce having to stop and wait for hate to get under control. Once I'ld found the hateline for the party shadows would no longer have a purpose. In the event of someone screwing up is why having whm was useful. As a blm/nin have a better shot at running to the zoneline when the tank dies or with /whm or /rdm I can add enough healing power in a pinch to prevent the run for the zone. If everthing goes smoothly a person can even get away with being underequiped or having a underleveled sub if their skilled, but I'ld rather see my pt have more margin for error through the accumilated little things.

[Lmnop]

Re: Tired of /nin

/nin sucks. I'm doomed to be /nin forever. Even though I want to do /sam, iron mind-sets won't let me.

It's unavoidably useful.

as for BLM:

blm/whm is pinnacle and the norm. More useful even than cures is the -na spells that no one's pointed out. My best BLMs usually beat the whms to Silena/Paralyna. They spend so much time observing the battle that they can quickly react. Indeed, any future enhancements to the BLM job should be geared towards biding their time and waiting for the right opportunity to act. I know this all sounds so boring but seriously, blm/whm is wonderful.

blm/rdm is nice, it gets nicer 42+ and I think every BLM should have the sub ready 64+ (another Dispeller is always a Godsend). The mp loss from /whm is negligible, though you'll get some cures at later levels. I really wish raise was level 36 or 37 instead of 38, just so /rdm could get some more lovin'.

what the stat comparisons miss on blm/nin is the ability to cross the hate line and the ability to lower elemental resistances with no chance of failure. What sucks about blm/nin is also the ability to cross the hate line. If you plan on pulling hate, just get in melee range. Nothing makes a melee want to swear more than having to chase a mob that's chasing some damn taru. Get in melee range before you do that shit. Don't screw up SATA.

blm/smn is extremely "meh." Max MP barely does anything for you, the extra INT won't really increase your damage output by any meaningful amount, and you lose all defensive methods. As was pointed out before, at least /whm gets blink/stoneskin.

I had a party recently on NIN with a backline of whm/something, brd/nin, blm/smn. I was level 39. When the WHM was out of mp, the blm was always at half mp resting away. What a waste. Our chains were dying because his MP had no where to go. The brd/nin coulda been a brd/whm and made that a lot better, but it wouldn't solve the issue of "unused mp." That mp on the blm is still going to waste.

On the topic of the brd/nin, he was using Mazurka to rip the mob off me so I could put blinks back up. Was quite nice even if he was a bit too anxious to do it. Woulda been better with a blm/whm though.

[Karinya]

Re: Tired of /nin

Exactly - but only if the blm is willing to do something besides nuke, nuke, get hate, get hit, drain, nuke some more until something dies. /whm doesn't do any good if the player refuses to USE it for something that benefits the party. Good blms usually sub /whm or /rdm because they are going to do something good with it that they can't do with other subs, but people who are subbing whm or rdm just because they have heard it is what they should sub won't necessarily become better blms because of it.

On the other hand, /nin can't do much to benefit the party, even if you try. (Even the resist lowering normally only benefits yourself, unless you have *really* good coordination with another mage in PT.) On the negative side, while screwing up SATA is bad enough, you can also make people lose their TP when the mob moves out of range while they are doing a WS.

Utsusemi gives you the false impression that because you're not being hit when you take hate, it's no big deal that you are taking hate. Meanwhile the bard is snarling at you under his breath every time you move the monster and half the party chases after it, and the thief is already contemplating unplugging her network cable to get out of the party. (I've played both of those jobs myself, as it happens, and those were more or less my reactions to the typical - and extremely common - bad blm.) Hate control is a group effort and you are really not helping the party by screwing it up, even if you do more damage in the process.

Well, before you get to the level where teamwork becomes obsolete, at least. But that's hopefully only a temporary screwup on SE's part.


P.S. Minor nitpick: blm/smn can aerial armor after level 50. Why don't you ever see them doing so? Think about what kind of player plays blm/smn in the first place...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Tired of /nin

Have you considered other factors influencing damage?

He was nuking slightly harder per spell (more before I caught on to his Ninjutsu elemental enfeeb), but primarily he was able to output more damage by casting more attack spells than I could.

He was also riding your coattails because you need "enough healing power in the party" - your cures are not just polite, but reduce the main healer's MP expenditure and thus downtime.

It's been a while, but if I remember it correctly, my cures really wasn't a big factor to the overall party performance. Except when we had links. Then, it was helpful. Otherwise, it really was just for politeness. (I have main healed on WHM, RDM, and tanked on PLD, NIN, WAR, and MNK--I should be decent at judging MP flow for healers. =b )

This is, in fact, the main reason for BLM/WHM - it allows BLM's high MP to be put to use partly for reducing downtime and improving the party's overall kill speed, rather than disrupting hate control by trying to be the star. If you weren't /WHM it would have been much more dangerous for him not to be - if the monster starts going after the healer and both blms are /nin, death is very likely (let alone what happens if the healer disconnects during a fight). And all this is assuming a monster that doesn't cause any harmful status - a second status curer can be extremely useful against certain monster families.

I understand all that, which is why I continued to use BLM/WHM to Lv.40 even after seeing how that Taru performed with BLM/NIN. The point I was making, though, is that BLM/NIN can work, depending on the circumstances, and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

* * *

Here's another scenario, Lv.55+:

NIN/WAR
(Some DD with MP? I forgot which)
SMN/WHM
WHM/BLM
BLM/WHM
RDM/BRD (me)

I used /BRD because more healing wasn't needed, with WHM plus SMN/WHM. Moreover, I wished the BLM would have gone as /NIN, since he was a one-taru nuke factory. It would have been better if he went to stand with the melee's and keep AoE sleep moves out of the back camp.

Would it have been better if he nuked less? Well, that party lacked damage, so holding back the BLM would have been a somewhat silly way to handle the situation. In that, maybe a BLM/NIN with Sanction refresh, Refresh, and Ballad I, could have worked out better than a BLM/WHM.

* * *

Using /NIN for everything is silly--but so is overlooking /NIN, depending on the situation.