About Elitists

[Vyuru]

Re: About Elitists

I will still TP burn with more than WAR/NIN onry. However, I will only do manaburn or TP burn. I will not do a 4k/hr Lufaise PT when I can do a 10-20k/hr Bhaflau PT.

Well, while you say you lump alot of jobs into the TP burn party, you won't party with the standard tank/mage/DD parties, which is fine, you play how you want. But alot of times other people ARE restrictive as to what they want in a party, and by making that comment, true or not, you are getting tossed in with them. I could say that I won't join a manaburn party as a melee and I'll get labled as an evil black mage hater, scourge of all mithrakind, and an evil doer of evil deeds.

It's kinda like this other thread I saw awhile ago. Back when ToAU was just released, and Wamoura Cocoons were badly camped and possibly botted. This one gamer posted a thread saying that she got a cocoon, not to give up hope you can still buy 'em, although it's hard, and she only needed one more cocoon for her puppet upgrade or something like that, fast forward through 5 pages of flames about what a horrible person she is.

Keep in mind that the reason people do the things they do isn't always because of elitism. A lot of the superior choices are the results of people learning more about the game and learning what works best over all. It is the collective experience of everyone that has played that teaches us what works and doesn't. The things that work become mainstream while the things that don't work cease to be accepted because they simply don't work as well.

I should mention that this next bit doesn't refer to you Yeargdribble, or anyone else on this forum.

Agreed, exp is exp to me. I can make a pretty good 8k/hr standard party, it might not be a TP burn because most of the TP burn spots are taken, but it's still exp and it's still pretty good, it's another player's right to turn down an invitation to a good 8k/hr party, but especially if it's a key job that I need for it, it's also my right to get a bit angry that that player was IMO, dumb enough to screw 5 others out of exp in the hopes that 5 other "perfect TP burn jobs" will show up, so that they can go to the highly overcamped TP burn exp spots, and fight over manaburn parties for the puddings or whatever they are.

It actually happens alot, using the Colibri camp as an example, I have seen 8 parties there, all the common TP burn jobs are in a party there, and I have had key jobs refuse to party with me since I was not forming a TP burn and I was not going to go hunt Colibri. If you actually go to the camp you can see parties fighting over mobs and trying to steal them from each other, do they really expect good exp from that? Things like that are sore points for alot of people, and if you say that you prefer party style X over Y, you will get flamed for being an elitist. It's a touchy subject and it's almost like talking about religion with someone else, or politics, or saying that Elvis sucks.

And, just another example:

If you are willing to defend someone's choice to wear what they wish then why not support my choice to pick a better PT?

Just like everyone will consider a different piece of armor as being good or acceptable, there are always different party styles that people think are good or acceptable. What one person thinks is good another person may think is bad.


Perfect example of this? I got called an elitist prick because I said that a drg who did a fair amount of soloing would find more use out of a Valkyrie Mask rather than a Walkure mask and that he should go for the Valkyrie Mask. At the time on my server, the Valkyrie mask is about 800k, while the Walkure mask runs at about 700k, I later found out on his server the Valkyrie mask was about 900k, while the Walkure mask was about 200k-300k.

Yeah, if I had known there was that much of a price difference I'd have told the guy to go with a Walkure mask, but my advice and opinion was based on if the two pieces of gear were comparable in price.

The place where I start to become very elitist is in endgame situations. If you've had WHM at 75 for a year, it is your only job, and you participate highly in endgame events with an endgame LS... then I will start to expect more.

Agreed, given all those conditions I would expect alot out of a player then.

But back to the main point of this thread, I don't think it's right to try to force someone else to agree and support your point of view, there are alot of different ways to play this game and they can all work together.

Just think about how many different strategies were considered the "only" way to beat the promies? To be a bit sarcastic about all the strats I've seen for it, I'll let you all know when I finally figure out how to get 2xnin, 4xrng, 6xsmn, and 6xblm into the promy battles.

Yes, it really does suck when you depend on someone else to progress through the game, and if they decide you aren't wanted, then it's too bad for you, but they shouldn't be forced to play with you either.

but its entirely another to turn down an invite because you don't like the job setup.

I think this is where you really got it wrong. Do you really expect me, as a lvl 67 drg, to join a party consisting of mnk, drk, drk, rdm, sam? And they want to go fight bomb happy goblins in Bibiki Bay? It has happened to me, and I would turn down any party invite if I did not think either myself, or the other party members could make it work.

[Vyuru]

Re: About Elitists

I personally feel that if you can afford it, it behooves yourself and others to get the best gear that you can afford.

Agreed, although I would toss in reasonably afford at the end there.

[Kholdstare]

Re: About Elitists

Agreed, although I would toss in reasonably afford at the end there.

I personally don't buy anything unless I'm going to have a sufficient amount of money left over, though yes, I would put this here as well.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: About Elitists

Well, while you say you lump alot of jobs into the TP burn party, you won't party with the standard tank/mage/DD parties, which is fine, you play how you want. But alot of times other people ARE restrictive as to what they want in a party, and by making that comment, true or not, you are getting tossed in with them.

This is hitting the nail on the head.

There's a reason people hate building PTs and its the people who are nitpicky and play 20 questions before taking an invite. RDM, BRD, COR and NIN might have it easy on invites, but just try to replacing yourself - its a damn chore sometimes. You have people acting like they're God's Gift to FFIX and want know what the setup is, how much EXP per hour and how long the PT plans to keep going.

Its maddening sometimes because I'm a guy that doen't want PTs to break just because I had to leave, but these people sometimes make it so I have no choice. I know how hard it is to level a DD class, I don't want to deprive people - especially those I enjoy EXPing with - the chance to progress.

Sometimes, I'm forced to decide if I really need to go. If I just wanted to go out for dinner, I'll grunt about eating at home, but if I have to go to bed so I can get up for work, its either replacment or I end up breaking the PT. I don't like doing the latter, but there are days I just can't stay.

And you get those people when you're trying to start a PT, too. I remember this one time I took an invite from a DRG as BRD. I was the first invite, we got a WHM, two DDs and then when we finally did get a NIN, we get this.

"I don't PT with DRGs."

We couldn't find another tank within ten minute, so WHM bails, followed by the DDs. Nice, standard EXP setup ruined by a choosy player. There is a distinct difference between having a preference and being a stubborn, selfish ass.

Now, I'll concede as a COR that if I don't see a SMN at least in my PTs, I'm not really jazzed at the start for not having a BRD or RDM with me. Evoker's Roll gives a refresh no matter what, but it may not be a consistant amount.

But I'll politely ask members to get Sanction refresh, or ask if they have Parade Gorget or a vermy. I won't condemn them for not having it (though I do regard Parade gorget to be standard gear), but so long as we get that sanction refresh on MP users on the way out, I'm more at ease about the PT and how I can support them, I don't just reject them for not playing my way.

And I do look at gear, not to be nosy or elitest, but to know their weaknesses and how I can stack the odds in our favor. To ignore that is kinda inefficient on one's part. So I don't care if a JP thinks I'm being rude, I'll /check and see what song/roll I need to do, i'll look at the foods they're using as well to make that decision.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: About Elitists

You have people acting like they're God's Gift to FFIX and want know what the setup is, how much EXP per hour and how long the PT plans to keep going.

The last question, about how long the PT plans to keep going, is a reasonable one. But the other 2 are very frustrating, the 2nd one especially. People playing 20 questions is one of the reasons I hate taking over as PT leader when we need to find replacements.

[Jei]

Re: About Elitists

PT set up is actually not a bad thing to know.

BLM solo/duo is the borest thing in the world. I wouldn't mind doing it once a year. But to max out merit with 10,000,000,000 exp, no no no.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: About Elitists

Yeah, I guess that's a personal preference issue. I can either get 10k/hr in a crappy manaburn where I have to deal with 4-5 other people, or I can get nearly similar numbers with my wife alone. It has the benefit of flexibility. You can start and stop when you wish. I find it no more mind-numbing than regular XP in a manaburn or TP burn really.

[Karinya]

Re: About Elitists

The problem with the burn-only attitude is that some jobs just don't fit into those offense-only parties (PLD and WHM come to mind) and by rejecting those jobs, you are rejecting the people playing those jobs. Thus they think you're being a prick.

Now, you may say it's SE's job to make sure all jobs can participate usefully in party setups that earn good exp, and I agree; but it's also players' responsibility (IMO) not to be too selfish about exploiting the super-exp opportunities we have right now at the expense of jobs that aren't favored for that type of party. Until SE does the right thing and rebalances high level mobs and/or exp rates so that no party setup is so grossly favored over another, players have a responsibility to be civil to each other and not reject them just because they're not a job that is perfect at exploiting the current exp loopholes.

Is it overly idealistic to expect players to actually hold to this standard? Maybe, but it's how I think players ought to behave toward each other, and even if some other people are going to be jerks about it and leave certain jobs out in the cold, I'm not going to follow suit.

Every player in this game has gotten help from the community and every player of this game should be willing to help the community. That's why you'll find me still inviting the non-FotM jobs, the DRGs, MNKs, BSTs and PUPs and the defensive jobs. And if you think that your job's place on top of the heap will never change, consider the BLMs. Once proud that they could make twice the exp of any normal party, they are now laid low (well, kind of low; the defensive jobs remain even worse off) by the new parties that make *four* times the exp of any normal party.

[Caspian]

Re: About Elitists

The weird thing about BLM's, though, is that they weren't nerfed into their current predicament. Infact, the BLM "nerf" doesn't even affect normal xp at all. They were just the kings of meriting with their 10k+ manaburns, but when ToAU came out, it gave melee the possibility to do twice that, w/o giving any better places for manaburns.

Just seems rather funny (not funny haha, funny queer) that they weren't nerfed into being bad at meriting, just everyone else was given a much better boost to where and how they could merit, making what was once 1337 xp, into something considered pathetic by our current standards.

Not really in accordance with the topic, just struck me as interesting. Most other "lesser jobs" are considered that way b/c of nerfing (RNG, DRG), regardless of their actual potential. BLM is that way simply b/c every other job received new and better opportunities.

As for being elitist about gear, I don't normally /check people that I party with. Basically I never do. Had an lsmate, though, who mentioned a RNG he was partying with around the same level as myself. He commented on how poor their gear was. Basically, they were in their mid-60's and didn't have a single piece of AF. Still wearing HQ noct gear and NQ wing earrings, NQ r. acc. rings, and no backpiece at all. I'm sorry, but that is just pathetic.
AF: free
HQ earrings: 60k total
HQ rings: 22k total
Amemet mantle: 5k
In these extreme cases, I will say something if I'm partied with them, or in this case, encourage my friend to say something to them. There's no reason to gimp yourself that much. I'm not expecting PCC, or E-bow, but if you don't have your staple regular RNG equipment, you really need to get your act together.

[Raydeus]

Re: About Elitists

The weird thing about BLM's, though, is that they weren't nerfed into their current predicament. Infact, the BLM "nerf" doesn't even affect normal xp at all. They were just the kings of meriting with their 10k+ manaburns, but when ToAU came out, it gave melee the possibility to do twice that, w/o giving any better places for manaburns.

Just seems rather funny (not funny haha, funny queer) that they weren't nerfed into being bad at meriting, just everyone else was given a much better boost to where and how they could merit, making what was once 1337 xp, into something considered pathetic by our current standards.

You are right ToAU's effect over Manaburns wasn't an actual nerf but rather it made BRDs leave manaburns and switch to TP burns instead, leaving BLMs without their main support for manaburning.

If you add to it that most people forgot what it was like being in a party with a BLM (because of Manaburns) then you can see how BLMs simply got erased from the xp map. I do think it's funny haha (the turn of events), since a change in the enviorement made a top of the line job become an endangered species.

I feel bad for BLMs though.

[Icemage]

Re: About Elitists

Well, Square-Enix did say that they'd do something "about those pesky Black Mages" - and they sure did!

I'm not really sure they did the right thing though - while I think it's fantastic that the game balance now heavily favors DDs for a good stretch of levels towards end-game, the fact is that BLMs are still very, very dominant at end-game, while melees are still struggling hard to find an identity and win places in end-game battles.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: About Elitists

You are right ToAU's effect over Manaburns wasn't an actual nerf but rather it made BRDs leave manaburns and switch to TP burns instead, leaving BLMs without their main support for manaburning.

BRDs have been dethroned by CORs for Manaburn anyway.

Healers Roll = +hMP while resting
Evoker's Roll = Refresh
Wizard's Roll = Magic Attack Bonus
Warlock's Roll = Magic Accuracy bonus

And then there's the Quick Draw, which a COR would use just like a BRD would Threnody in the manaburn scenario, but they could use them to enhance the effects of spells like Gravity be part of a sleep order with Light Shot.

All this and we can pull, too.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: About Elitists

There's a reason people hate building PTs and its the people who are nitpicky and play 20 questions before taking an invite. RDM, BRD, COR and NIN might have it easy on invites, but just try to replacing yourself - its a damn chore sometimes. You have people acting like they're God's Gift to FFIX and want know what the setup is, how much EXP per hour and how long the PT plans to keep going.

As a RDM, if I have enough free time on my hands to calculate the exp/hour, I already know the exp/hour is bad. >_> From RDM Lv.1 to Lv.67, I've never asked that before, nor have had anyone asking when I'm party leader.

However, party leaders unwilling to answer a few simple questions about party set up annoys me a great deal. The frequent accusation that I'm a jerk for asking (well, it's usually like "I thought you were going to be a jerk about it when you started asking questions.") is equally frustrating.

I ask about the party set up and camp site because I want to know what support job to sub, what food to bring, and what macro adjustments to make. A minute of the leader's time to help me understand what I'm getting into is of great help. There's no need to call me names for it, honestly.

It's perfectly OK to tell me "Only me so far; still looking for members." I've never turned down that kind of invite. On the other hand, if the leader doesn't answer any question I had, it's an automatic "No". At least, back when I asked questions--these days people become irritable so easily, I just /sigh, only ask where the party is going if no one else says anything for five minutes, and hope for the best.

Yes, they still get annoyed when I ask where the camp is. What am I supposed to do? Read their minds?! I ask because I don't know/remember how to get to many places, and may need some directions!

Have I declined after knowing the set up? Sure. If the leader says a NIN tank and the only NIN I see on /search is the fool who only uses one provoke per battle I had partied with three nights ago, I'm going to ask if that's the one. If so, it's "Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass."

It also shouldn't be a crime to ask how much longer is the party going. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer for non-JP party, though I do prefer a definite length of time.

* * *

After reading all the stuff back and forth, I think I know my New Year's Resolution for FFXI: I'm going back to my old ways, and I will reply to every single invite with questions. (When the entire /tell message consists of "PT?", at least.)

If a leader cannot politely answer a few simple questions without getting mad or sulky, I don't want to party with him. I have ZERO responsibility or concern for his "progression" if I can't even get a civilized answer or two.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: About Elitists

The only job I really feel bad for is PLD really. BLM is still the king of endgame and, like was mentioned, they didn't really get nerfed. Like Icemage said, it really balances out. PLD is the one job where it doesn't balance out. We still need PLDs to tank in endgame and die quite a bit more than any other job, yet they are the lowest man on the totem when it comes to XP invites.

A well DD geared PLD/NIN can do their fair share in a PT burn, but most refuse to work on a full DD build and despise the idea of not tanking.

[Jei]

Re: About Elitists

I don't think that's balance tho.

Yes BLM are really good for end game activities. To say that we are already popular there so it balance out with us not getting PT invites..... that's just wrong. I don't think that's balance at all.

SMN got it at even more extreme rate... more wanted than BLM for end game, less wanted than BLM for merit : /

Melee jobs get it totally opposite..... err... not all melee jobs. War Mnk Nin mainly. So welcome for TP burn but not so much for HNM.

I really don't think jobs being wanted in only 1/2 aspect of the game like this is balanced. All jobs should have a place in both end game and merit.