Log Parsing

[hongman]

Are the chat logs archived anywhere I can access? I would like to start parsing logs for my static LS party.

Also, can anyone recommend a good parsing tool

Thank you

[neighbortaru]

Re: Log Parsing

the most popular parser for EN players is spyle's. unfortunately, it's no longer in development. someone else picked up the project though I don't remember the link to that (saw it on "the prohibited windower site").

[hongman]

Re: Log Parsing

Thanks, I am just interested in seeing what kind of stats I can pick up during a typical nights XP party. Also will be good for BCNM etc.

(Just had a really strong feeling of Deja Vu...wierd.)

[Sabaron]

Re: Log Parsing

http://www.lildevilproductions.net/news.php

It was picked up by Tazzylynn who keeps the above site. The original link in my about took me to an older site that redirected me to that site. Mind your sensibilities (if they're easily offended) by the nude cartoon devil girl at the top (nothing's showing, but I might not open it up under certain conditions).

It appears that you have to log in to download it--use an e-mail address that you use for Junk Mail (I'm not sure of the possibility of spam).

[hongman]

Re: Log Parsing

Iv got an interesting update for this thread, hehe.

I was talking about this in my LS after 2 members started arguing about the highest dmg DD in the game, BLU vs RNG vs SMN.

So I offerered to help - is parse the logs and see who, most consistently, did the most dmg.

Then my LS Leader started saying, no discussion on illegal tools. I answered back that this couldnt be seen as an illegal tool such as windower or bots, seemings as it mearly parsing text - HOW can that be cheating?

Answer I got was SE would class it as a 3rd party tool I would get banned, end of story. So I called a GM as posed the question: is using this log parser illegal?

After a pretty long silence, I got the standard answer - SE does not allow the use of this tool as it is classified as 3rd party - not built into the game.

So I asked, what if it is not installed on the same PC as the game? I.E this only needs a mapped drive to work.

Answer:

It is not illegal if it isnt installed on the same PC as the game itself. So yes you could use it then.

Needless to say, this opened up a whole can of worms when I went back to the LS to inform.

I did tell them, the forum I got the parser from is very "law-abiding" and they would have flagged me if it wasnt allowed to be used, lest the fact 2 highly respectable members answered my question.

So, as far as you know, IS it illegal?

And what about this loophole, for the fact that if it is not on the same PC but has network access, its fine? What do you make of that?

[neighbortaru]

Re: Log Parsing

by strict interpretation of the rules, yes it is illegal. however, as pointed out by the GM if you run this on another computer mapped to your drive, it is perfectly fine. just remember, if anyone asks or says something about it, you are running the parser on another computer

[Xubuntu]

Re: Log Parsing

And what about this loophole, for the fact that if it is not on the same PC but has network access, its fine? What do you make of that?

The long and the short of it is the parser is an Illegal tool.

SE has a hard and fast stance that you don't run any 3rd party programs that interact with the game. They opt for this draconian style of rule interpretation so there isn't any loopholes when SE has to take action on a player using software that provides an unfair advantage. The unforunate side effect is that the spirit of the rules is lost.

As for the loophole, I have to think that perhaps the GM spoke out of turn. The logs, it could be argued, are SE's intellectual property, and as such, you don't have the right to use them for anything beyond a manner they deem appropriate (Section d of Article 3 in the User agreement).

As a reasonable human being, I find it hard to take issue with anyone using the parser. It's one of those tools that doesn't hinder another player, nor does it really give the user any huge advantage over any other platform. A Stopwatch coupled with pad 'n paper can accomplish the same tasks.

[Raydeus]

Re: Log Parsing

How exactly does the parser tool work?

For the non-illegal aproach you would have to logout every couple of fights to do the parsing out of the text logs while out of the game, sadly if the log space gets full before you are able to parse the current records the new records will start overwritting the old ones.

But if a parser running at the same time as the game would save it's own logs and make it possible for infinite log recording (limited by HDDspace only) then it would be illegal no matter how you put it, simply because it'll be affecting the way the game works.

[Yeargdribble]

Re: Log Parsing

Pretty sure there's nothing wrong with using a parser. It has absolutely no affect on anything in the game. Additionally, you could easily run it without using any other tools. You can boot it up before starting FFXI jsut like you can with Fraps (which I believe has been ok'd by SE).

However, there will always be those that argue that parsing is cheating in some way because it gives you info you wouldn't know otherwise (like TP counters, BP timers etc). I personally think all of that stuff is pretty tame. They are all methods of doing something more efficiently without actually affecting game play.

You could Fraps all of your logs and then go parse them with a pencil and paper later. You could scream your TP in the PT chat constantly. You could keep an egg timer next to you for keeping track of your BP timers.

All of these just allow you to do the same thing you normally could in a slightly less clunky way while not really affecting the game at all. I believe parsers affect the game least of all.


People argue that parsers reinforce the TP burn mentality and the anti-XXX job mentality. However, I think they just give clear proof for some jobs that they aren't really under-par. I was leveling DRG today and I was parsing 31% of the damage and my Wyvern was parsing 9% of the damage. Essentially I was parsing 40% of the damage in my PT. loldrg my ass.


EDIT:

But if a parser running at the same time as the game would save it's own logs and make it possible for infinite log recording (limited by HDDspace only) then it would be illegal no matter how you put it, simply because it'll be affecting the way the game works.

This is no different than taking a screenshot (or digital picture if you think Fraps is wrong) every few minutes and hand parsing. If it is saving extra log info, it is saving it in the same way you could with a camera. I doubt SE is gonna ban the use of cameras while playing.

[Icemage]

Re: Log Parsing

I'm of the opinion that a parser is a direct equivalent of a 3rd party screenshotting program like Clipper or FRAPS, and is about as invasive as POLUtils. It is a 3rd party tool, but harmless enough to be laughable. It provides nothing that you can't do yourself if you were fast enough.

Parsers don't directly interact with FFXI at all. The only thing they do is read the chat logs which are kept in text files on the HDD (and are thus accessible by any Windows program) - they're entirely passive in this respect, since those files are generated natively by the FFXI client software.

I don't use a parser, but I consider them to be a third party tool only as a technicality.


Icemage

[Jei]

Re: Log Parsing

Tons of things are not given to us by SE and I'm sure all of them will classified as illegal. Cheating or not, still a 3rd party tool.

IMO it's up to the user's common sense to decide which one is cheating. Makes you run 2x faster, hell yea. Log your chat onto TXT, hell no.

Use them, just don't talk about them.

[Macht]

Re: Log Parsing

Pretty sure there's nothing wrong with using a parser. It has absolutely no affect on anything in the game. Additionally, you could easily run it without using any other tools. You can boot it up before starting FFXI jsut like you can with Fraps (which I believe has been ok'd by SE).
However, there will always be those that argue that parsing is cheating in some way because it gives you info you wouldn't know otherwise (like TP counters, BP timers etc). I personally think all of that stuff is pretty tame. They are all methods of doing something more efficiently without actually affecting game play.
You could Fraps all of your logs and then go parse them with a pencil and paper later. You could scream your TP in the PT chat constantly. You could keep an egg timer next to you for keeping track of your BP timers.
All of these just allow you to do the same thing you normally could in a slightly less clunky way while not really affecting the game at all. I believe parsers affect the game least of all.
People argue that parsers reinforce the TP burn mentality and the anti-XXX job mentality. However, I think they just give clear proof for some jobs that they aren't really under-par. I was leveling DRG today and I was parsing 31% of the damage and my Wyvern was parsing 9% of the damage. Essentially I was parsing 40% of the damage in my PT. loldrg my ass.
EDIT:
This is no different than taking a screenshot (or digital picture if you think Fraps is wrong) every few minutes and hand parsing. If it is saving extra log info, it is saving it in the same way you could with a camera. I doubt SE is gonna ban the use of cameras while playing.

Often in the game development the intentional omit of info from other players is not by the idea of it being knowledge they shouldn't know. It's done intentionally by the idea of how the player will use this knowledge. I'm sure there are many people that absolute HATE those "back-seat drivers". Providing everyone with the knowledge of everyone elses TP just provides to much potential for a back-seat driver that'll start telling other how and when they should use their TP.

In other MMO's they intentionally omit the MP as well because it provides knowledge that could lead to this same "back-seat driving" and someone trying to enforce their ideals onto another of how they should play that job. It may seem trivial to people until they are the target of this ostracizing, then it isn't fun at all. Anything that reduces a fun experience also will reduce people's intrest to play the game again. So of course this is something the game developers would want to avoid.

So yes really by the unfortunate rulling of if someone can't play nice with that feature then no one should get it ends up being applied and the developers omit it. It's far easier to just omit or remove a function then it is to try an police it. Of course there are conditions were omitting or removing isn't the best option.


The intresting thing though of how the GM made that comment seems to coincide more with the kind of 3rd party interaction they don't want. Since the program would be running on a different computer it's then only accessing the HD and looking at a file that is flat out text. That is far different then a program that is reading the memory information and pulling that sort of info (TP, BP, Distance, Mini-Maps, etc...). In the same spirit of it though with using parsers I would use it only for an experiment basis, if you start using it to ostracize people then it becomes a threat to the game.

[Rai]

Re: Log Parsing

by strict interpretation of the rules, yes it is illegal. however, as pointed out by the GM if you run this on another computer mapped to your drive, it is perfectly fine. just remember, if anyone asks or says something about it, you are running the parser on another computer

How about running it in a Virtual Machine on the same computer as your FFXI?

I would have to say this on a Parser, a parser is reading log files FFXI writes to your Hard drive. It does not intercept or sniff TCP packets, it does not interfere, interpret, modify or compromise in any way the flow of data to and from POL, FFXI game and the SE Servers.

Therefore it is not 3rd party software that violates their TOS. People have certain rights with regards to their property, your computer is your property and if a software application creates any cache files or logs you have the right to know the content of those files created on your property.

[Macht]

Re: Log Parsing

your computer is your property and if a software application creates any cache files or logs you have the right to know the content of those files created on your property.

Technically that isn't 100% right. Especially if you are making payments on a computer still, then also with some programs the agreement will go as far as to specifically state that all content existing on HD that is the program or generated by the program is still their property and you are technically "leasing" the program and everything generated from it.

So no everything captured on your HD is not your property.

[Rai]

Re: Log Parsing

Technically that isn't 100% right. Especially if you are making payments on a computer still, then also with some programs the agreement will go as far as to specifically state that all content existing on HD that is the program or generated by the program is still their property and you are technically "leasing" the program and everything generated from it.
So no everything captured on your HD is not your property.

Well, first off my computer was 100% paid off day 1. Secondly I said you have the right to know what is in the log/cache files I did not say you own them.

Not everything companies put in TOS or User Agreements stands up 100% in courts. Of course they will try to put as much in as they can, and expect people to comply but in the end that does not guarantee they have a 100% air tight agreeement. Courts often decide on the side of the consumer, companies will always try to impose unrealistic limits on the rights of the consumer. In the USA we have Fair Use, which gives the comsumer of an Audio CD the right to make a back-up of their purchase. If the record companies had their way people would be SOL if they scratched their CD.

So I am putting forth the belief that you have the right to know the contents of the log/cache files generated on your computer. You have a right to read those files if they are written in a non-encryted format. Because you have the right to know if software you are using is in any way shape or form compromising your confidentiality. If the developer has not taken steps to lock-down those log/cache files by encrypting them they are open for you to read.