Making the game appetizing for new players

[dirtyclown]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Oi, you two need to shut up already. Its annoying and thread-killing.

PS. Making friends is easy, no matter what job you have. I just made a Assault Static with a PLD, and he would probably have had a time otherwise.

Your bitching isn't helping either. Also, the bolded area proves our point. No matter how you look at it, this game requires you to get lucky, play the right job, and lick the right boots or you'll get nowhere. Simple solution to this is to make sure that all new players play only the popular jobs and listen to everything that "veterans" feed them, even if it is a crock of shit. At least that way we'll have younger Paladins running around with 75 vit at level 50 thinking they're "doin it rite". There is no possible way to make this game more appetizing. How the hell did we all end up here in the first place? This game attracts certain kinds of people, and we all just happen to be those kind of people. Sad, masochistic, miserable people who like to play games that punish us for relatively no reason. It gets us hot, amirite?

Thread's over, everybody go home.

[Legal Fish]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Most of the time, it isn't the whole "communicating with other players", its "looking at the game's chat data to see what cutscene comes next". Now if they gave you clues to go to next, then people would probably actually work together to find out... but probably would still resort to looking at the game's chat data.

[Lmnop]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

That is how it is supposed to be, you are supposed to work with others to do things. You are supposed to interact with your fellow players. You aren't supposed to do these things alone.

Pair this mindset (which is, indeed, S-E's mindset when they made this game) with the lack of windowed functionality. They were just ASKING for players to crack the game code and make the windowers we see now.

I'm not doing these quests together with other players. I'm going to a database site where some person I've never even heard of has put together a cohesive picture of the quest for me. I just have to connect the dots. I don't even check for passwords in Castle Oztroja. I just open Alla and start trial and error from a list of all the possible words.

And so, I come to the conclusion that I agree that quest texts could be a wee bit less ambiguous. Especially since they know we just .dat mine all the data these days and have the answers.

...then again, there's no reason for them to elaborate when the players do it for them.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Skimmed through most of this I'll admit, although, I hovered around the name-calling for a while.

Just throwing a few thoughts in here that I think would help new players and make things a little less tedious for the existing crowd or experienced returning players who probably want to vomit at the thought of doing the chocobo quest, OP warps, CN map quest, etc all over again.

I'll be blunt with these suggestions, I don't have time to honey-coat them just so the exceptionally rabid fanbois don't choke on their cornflakes.

1) Blatantly steal WoW's quest system

Brief run down for the ones who haven't experienced this. Quests are set by level in WoW, therefore, you will be unable to gain a quest that is flagged level 70+ when you are a lowbie 20th paladin. However, at those levels when quests are available, the questgivers are marked with a golden (!) above their heads. This enables new players, and old players alike, to see who has quests they can attempt. Once you've completed a quest then the (!) changes to a golden (?) and shows up on your map much the same way as the woman does when you get your initial token quest.

Now, I'm aware you can change jobs in FFXI and this would mean the quests could be completed by a higher level job thus making them trivial, however, this already happens anyway so no real issue there and to be honest this is more of a benefit for those, "first time around" players.

2) Reduce the chase distance of aggroed mobs

Like the subject says, reduce the distance a mob chases you before it loses interest. The idea a crab will chase you across an entire zone if it detects you is a real enjoyment-killing mechanic for most new players. Especially when traversing the terrain in FFXI can be such a pain in the arse due to the piss poor collision detection.

3) Remove experience points loss on death

Yes, I said it. No, I'm not advocating making FFXI weaksauce for "special" kids. Experience point loss kills the sense of exploration in this game as well as the, "Oh what the hell let's try it" sentiment. I've lost track of the times people would rather stand around looking at their MH walls because the fear of exp loss outweighs the sense of trying something new and difficult. There is no real reason behind taking someone's exp away if they die.

Experience is simply that, a reward for progressing and discovering more of the game. To delevel for example, as a result of exp loss, can't be justified in these terms. Besides, there are plenty of merits to earn or jobs for you to grind exp on if you feel the need to beat yourself up with the "experience points to next level" guage.

I'm sure I'll think of more ideas but I will say things like the Limit Breaks should be retained in my opinion as they set this game apart from others in that sense of achievement. There are, however, many features in this game that could be streamlined and the people who champion the statement, "The game really sucks for the first 30 levels before it gets better" need to sit back and realise the blatant stupidity of that statement when looked at from a game that is severely needing new blood.

[cakemeat]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

2) Reduce the chase distance of aggroed mobs
...
3) Remove experience points loss on death
...
the fear of exp loss outweighs the sense of trying something new and difficult. There is no real reason behind taking someone's exp away if they die....

I have to agree. I love the visuals in this game. And I love to explore.. but of course.. i wander into a really cool area. and then something kills me.. HARD

[Icemage]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Things are never as simple as they seem.

Reducing the chase distance I have no real problems with. Since you can zone to avoid most enemies, and especially with the despawning rules as they are now, this doesn't materially affect game balance.

Removing XP loss is a thornier issue however. While XP loss does stunt the exploration, it also prevents other behaviors, like people pointlessly spam-attempting NMs that they have no hope of defeating. Hovering the risk of delevel prevents this from being abused, and gives players an impetus to finish battles quickly.

There's also the issue of Conquest being totally messed up. With no risk of XP loss, one level 75 player could theoretically destabilize all conquest results in every region in the game in a matter of hours just by setting their homepoint and committing suicide over and over.


Icemage

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I don't remember it being a whole world of fun if a goblin smithy aggroed me in the Highlands on my way to, or returning from, the Dunes when I was pre-chocobo level. Those kind of experiences are sometimes unavoidable and they really contribute to ruining a new player's day.

I hear what you're saying about Conquest but I'm sure they could work a way around that. Maybe use of a timer for respawning if you die too many times in succession. Say you die three times in a row then implement a ten second wait on when you can next repop at your HP. If you die again then make it 20 seconds and so on until you go say a minute without a death then reset it back to instant repop. Times et cetera are all pulled out the air but I'm sure S-E could come up with something.

[Icemage]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I don't remember it being a whole world of fun if a goblin smithy aggroed me in the Highlands on my way to, or returning from, the Dunes when I was pre-chocobo level. Those kind of experiences are sometimes unavoidable and they really contribute to ruining a new player's day.

I already agreed that reducing chase distances wasn't a bad idea... so...?


Icemage

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

I already agreed that reducing chase distances wasn't a bad idea... so...?
Icemage

Yeah, you kinda confused me there. It seemed you said okay then went on to say you have no problems zoning or escaping mobs. I misunderstood your post, my bad.

[Vyuru]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Actually it does mean a game design is bad. Isnt the whole point of a game especially an MMO. Is to get you to buy the game, an to sit there an subscribe to it for an extended period of time. An if they decide this game isnt for them after so sort of time, i give them alot of credit. You dont have to grind for months on end, or do worthless questrs for fame to realize a game sucks.

I see what you are saying, but from my experiance, most of these people don't give the game a fair try regardless. I've known people to quit after a few days because casting magic takes too long, and their highest job is ar best in the teens, not even out of Valkurm yet.

I wouldn't say the game design is bad though, for instance, from what I have heard about it I would never play WoW, and I doubt I would play EverQuest. Guild Wars and Eve sound interesting, but I haven't decided yet if I want to try them. Does that make them bad?

With offline games, I would never play those beach volleyball games, dating sims, or the adult only games the male japanese foriegn exchange students keep trying to get me to play. Does that make them a bad game? No, it's just not my personal preference in games.

I don't think that exp should be easier in the low levels, that's as easy as it gets. It can go even faster once you get an exp ring, which if you want to get, you can just level all the beginning jobs to what, level 3 or level 4 for the CP you need for one? How long does that take, an hour or two, maybe three at most? And you probably don't even need to level that much to get enough CP for a ring.

I wouldn't be adverse to an easier way to get the exp scrolls at around level 20, but right now, we have 3 ways to get a scroll: Chocobo quest, Garrison, and Eco Warrior, all of which can be done at level 20, and actually I believe that Eco Warrior and Garrisons cap you at level 20. Garrisons are especially good, since they always drop 2 scrolls per fight that you win. Bring along a trigger item per person, and each person walks away with 2 scrolls, assuming that no one dies and that if someone does die, the scrolls don't go to whoever dies. You make money, have fun, and get some exp, IMO doesn't get better.

The only hard part about these is either you need a group, or you need to get that chocobo back to it's stable in record time in order to get the exp scroll. I think it would be good if SE had a quest that was once a week, and you had to take a package from one town to another, and the reward was a dragon chronicle page. You can do it yourself, and it's only one quest so it wouldn't be ground breaking. If SE wanted to make it harder they could toss on restrictions, like no teleport spells, no warp, OP warp, airship, chocobo only, etc.

Likewise making money in the low levels isn't an issue. Most towns have a crafted good that sells well. Sand'Oria for instance has a brisk well paying market in Bronze Ingots and Sheep Leather, both of which are low level synths that any beggining player can readily make. Or they can get in on the Crystal market, just have signet up at all times. Windurst citizens can farm crawlers, bees, rabbits, yagudo, or harvest. Sand'Orian citizens can farm beetles, orcs, bats, sheep, fungaur, the repeatable Bat Wing quest, or log. Bastok citizens can farm bees, sheep, quadav, the repeatable Bubbly Bernie quest, or mine.

If the new player is a citizen of that nation, then they can buy gear through CP, such as the Royal Footmen's gloves, or the bastok gloves, or just anything. Each nation has a way to make gil that ANY new player can easily utilize.

This game doesn't just give you everything you want when you want it, you have to work for it. Both the Bubbly Bernie and the Warding Vampire quests are low fame quests that the player can do right away by talking to the npc. By saying that they can't find these quests, those players are saying that they are not talking to NPCs, if they are not talking to NPCs, do you really expect them to get far in the game? They aren't even trying at that point.

Some quests could use a clearer description of what they want done, but in most cases I think the quests are pretty clear as to where to find the item and what you need to do.

Grizzlebeard brought up a few points that I'd like to address though.

2) Reduce the chase distance of aggroed mobs

I would agree with this, it's absurd, I can get aggro and run across the entire zone with the monster on my heels, yet when I go out to pull a monster back to camp the mob despawns after practically 5 steps.

I can outrun most things, it's easy to figure out how the mob's AI works with the terrain, yet even though I left it in the dust it's still chasing me?

[Raydeus]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

1) Blatantly steal WoW's quest system

Nah.

2) Reduce the chase distance of aggroed mobs

This would be nice for players with a job up to lvl 17 and no sub. For a new player being chased by a gob and getting slaughtered isn't very fun indeed.

However after you get your sub you should have enough experience already to avoid aggro and pay the consecuences of not playing it Metal Gear.

3) Remove experience points loss on death

Lol no.

However reducing the xp loss to 5% with a 1500-1600 xp loss cap would be nice and more adventurer friendly, but removing the penalty would be way too much.

[Gentoo]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

Removing XP loss is a thornier issue however. While XP loss does stunt the exploration, it also prevents other behaviors, like people pointlessly spam-attempting NMs that they have no hope of defeating. Hovering the risk of delevel prevents this from being abused, and gives players an impetus to finish battles quickly.

I'm in the camp that FFXI's system of allowing players to lose experience and de-level not necessarily needing to be changed, but the topic is interesting.

What about simply removing the chance of a de-level? Perhaps the risk of experience loss is enough?

I can only comment on my own frame of reference, but the risk losing a few thousand exp is punishment enough for getting into a lethal situation. I suspect I'm not unique in my desire to make progress, and constantly losing experience points to death definitely runs counter to that desire.

Of course, this begs the question, what stops the player from exploiting the situation of having 0 exp into a level. A simple time-out, say ~60 seconds, before the player can HP in the situation of having no exp to loose. Or perhaps, make the player with no experience to lose suffer raise sickness even if they HP...

[Jonastb]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

In the xp department, I have always wondered why you lose up to 2400 xp on a mob that has the potential to give you 200. I would change the xp loss to the same amount of xp you would have gained had you won, including all bonuses you would have gotten, ring, sanction...etc. This way, there is a penalty, but it isn't so harsh that it takes an hour to get back the xp you lost.
If that sounds like a long time, try xping BST 60+ and having to HP cause your reraise just wore off mid battle.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

In the xp department, I have always wondered why you lose up to 2400 xp on a mob that has the potential to give you 200. I would change the xp loss to the same amount of xp you would have gained had you won, including all bonuses you would have gotten, ring, sanction...etc. This way, there is a penalty, but it isn't so harsh that it takes an hour to get back the xp you lost.
If that sounds like a long time, try xping BST 60+ and having to HP cause your reraise just wore off mid battle.

I could definitely live with this plan. I'd much rather lose 250~ish xp than 3000+ >.< (And I'm sure it gets worse as you get higher up.)

[Mhurron]

Re: Making the game appetizing for new players

In the xp department, I have always wondered why you lose up to 2400 xp on a mob that has the potential to give you 200. I would change the xp loss to the same amount of xp you would have gained had you won, including all bonuses you would have gotten, ring, sanction...etc. This way, there is a penalty, but it isn't so harsh that it takes an hour to get back the xp you lost.
If that sounds like a long time, try xping BST 60+ and having to HP cause your reraise just wore off mid battle.

You would never loose any more then 300exp this way. Dying is supposed to be a bad thing, you're supposed to try and avoid it.

I could definitely live with this plan. I'd much rather lose 250~ish xp than 3000+ >.< (And I'm sure it gets worse as you get higher up.)

You'll never loose more then somewhere around 2300exp.

Edit: The EXP Loss cap is at 2400. So at lvl 75 you would loose as much as you would at lvl 63.