Windower

[Aeni]

Re: Windower

I know for a fact that if SE decides to ban Azaril's Windower, that many people on Hades have already stated they will just QUIT instead of playing. They are not adverse to just throwing away the 100+ days they put in if SE made that move.

I think only a fool would pull a stunt like that (effectively removing a bulk of their income is stupid IMHO) but SE has done stuff like this in the past and I wouldn't put it past them to move forward with any proposals to that effect.

And you know what? It won't stop the hacking, cheating, exploiting and RMT. That's the really sad part.

[TenTako]

Re: Windower

So is there any way that SE can actually tell that you are using a windower now? Since it only affects the memory I am guessing all they can do is have the client report back to SE what the screen resolution is and if it does not match the screen sizes that are standard to FFXI, they will thus interpret that as a bannable offence?

[Antivomit]

Re: Windower

[quote=Macht;648155]Well there's always pencil/pen and paper. >.>



Like I said, I don't have time to write down everything I would need off the web...

[Macht]

Re: Windower

I use the windower just so I can have quest walkthroughs and such up while doing them or browsing the internet while seeking. I understand why SE doesn't build it in, and I understand that alot of people use it in malicious ways to w/e extent, but I think majority of us who have it installed is more for harmless convenience. There's no real way, except for admitting it in-game, that SE can tell you're using the windower, if you're using ONLY the windower, so I don't think it'll become an issue when the ban stick starts being waved around.

Only thing is I've yet to see a person use windower and only use windower. They got to have the TP hack up, they got to have other programs running so they can see a mini-map without switching back and forth to the other map and many other similar things.

Also as it's been proven with hard data, the playerbase that is lost when you start having a number of people hacking it is a lot higher then the people actually hacking it. So even though you are getting rid of a chunk the remaining net you can potentially preserve still is often far greater. Not to mention the player base you can potential draw seeking an online game that is actively stopping hacking activities or other ToS violations.

Well there's always pencil/pen and paper. >.>

Like I said, I don't have time to write down everything I would need off the web...

Lol, how can you not. Writing it down takes less time then to take a piss, unless your writing skills are really that bad.

[Theyaden]

Re: Windower

Personally I would welcome a windower option in the FFXI game. It's not always convenient to have a 2nd computer sitting next to your main one just to play. I've never understood why my PC should be reduced to the power of a playstation. Since there are hack programs that people open before opening FFXI the issue with Windower just means it'll be a 3rd party program rather than one easily monitored by SE

FFXI. Not to mention how agrevating it is if I forget about antivirus or messenger and one of them boots me from a party. (Just picture while tanking or main healing).

[neighbortaru]

Re: Windower

since there is already a windowing support question in the Questions forum, and since this is veering off-topic, I'm moving this to general.

[Aeni]

Re: Windower

So is there any way that SE can actually tell that you are using a windower now? Since it only affects the memory I am guessing all they can do is have the client report back to SE what the screen resolution is and if it does not match the screen sizes that are standard to FFXI, they will thus interpret that as a bannable offence?

AFAIK, no, they cannot tell. However, I've heard rumors to the effect that a GM can throw an out-of-size command to make you crash (And if you don't, it proves you're using a 3rd Party) but even that's iffy atm due to legal issues (Purposely causing detriment to a normally working PC is illegal and constitutes a crime for hijacking a computer w/o consent of the user)

The only way they know you are using some kind of 3rd party program is if you exhibit real symptoms such as instant movment through zones outside of normal conditions (e.g., not using the proper Teleport, Escape or Warp spells/scrolls/enchantments or sending oneself to their homepoint upon death), increased movement speed without the proper job abilities and for an unacceptable duration of time (e.g., Flee being active for 1+ minute straight w/o stoppage which is outside of acceptable lag/THF equipment enhancement arguments), abnormal movement or behavior (e.g., Fishing in the middle of Jeuno casting your line in front of the AH) and other such things. If the game can't normally reproduce a condition or behavior then it's most likely caused by a 3rd party program.

Windowing, however, is not something that a GM can "see" and unless a player has stated beyond doubt an admission that he or she is currently using a 3rd party program at the moment to an employee of SE or their affiliates who question them in the game, then there is no legal cause or grounds on which SE can accuse a player.

However, this can change if they modify the way the client operates. I can see a scenario in which this can occur, but it may cause the game to not function properly since this kind of change would require a complete restructuring of the client and it jeopardizes SE's promise of "delivering the same kind of gameplay for both PS2, XBox 360 and PC users."

[Jei]

Re: Windower

No. Japanese version never had window mode. You're confused with POL settings perhaps.

[TenTako]

Re: Windower

AFAIK, no, they cannot tell. However, I've heard rumors to the effect that a GM can throw an out-of-size command to make you crash (And if you don't, it proves you're using a 3rd Party) but even that's iffy atm due to legal issues (Purposely causing detriment to a normally working PC is illegal and constitutes a crime for hijacking a computer w/o consent of the user)
The only way they know you are using some kind of 3rd party program is if you exhibit real symptoms such as instant movment through zones outside of normal conditions (e.g., not using the proper Teleport, Escape or Warp spells/scrolls/enchantments or sending oneself to their homepoint upon death), increased movement speed without the proper job abilities and for an unacceptable duration of time (e.g., Flee being active for 1+ minute straight w/o stoppage which is outside of acceptable lag/THF equipment enhancement arguments), abnormal movement or behavior (e.g., Fishing in the middle of Jeuno casting your line in front of the AH) and other such things. If the game can't normally reproduce a condition or behavior then it's most likely caused by a 3rd party program.
Windowing, however, is not something that a GM can "see" and unless a player has stated beyond doubt an admission that he or she is currently using a 3rd party program at the moment to an employee of SE or their affiliates who question them in the game, then there is no legal cause or grounds on which SE can accuse a player.
However, this can change if they modify the way the client operates. I can see a scenario in which this can occur, but it may cause the game to not function properly since this kind of change would require a complete restructuring of the client and it jeopardizes SE's promise of "delivering the same kind of gameplay for both PS2, XBox 360 and PC users."

Thank you very much for the intelligent reply. Thats what I was waiting to hear.

[Antivomit]

Re: Windower

Lol, how can you not. Writing it down takes less time then to take a piss, unless your writing skills are really that bad.

With two hours of play time, I avoid taking a piss, eating, thinking, and sometimes I avoid breathing if it slows me down. With that in mind, I like to try to avoid spending half of that 2hours logging out - finding/writing info - logging in - forgetting something important - repeating process.

[samarium]

Re: Windower

then there is no legal cause or grounds on which SE can accuse a player.

Unfortunately, legality doesn't enter into it. SE can ban you for next-to-no reason if they feel like it; the only tangible thing that prevents them from doing so is profit.

That said, due to the fact that the game and any associated files can be updated at any point, remotely, it's a trivial matter for them to issue code to detect the presence of the Windower if they so desire.

It looks like the only reason they don't start handing out bans by the truckload is because use of the windower on PC platforms has grown so widespread that a sizeable fraction of their PC crowd would have to die, and with them their thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or Yen. Or whatever.

Not to mention that it's completely harmless as far as third-party programs go - it doesn't permit botting or any kind of movehacks or anything like that.

-sam

[Illuen]

Re: Windower

I know that quite a few people use the slippery slope argument, that using Windower causes other hacks to be seen as ok, but honestly, the people who I know and who have admitted to me that they use Windower all tell me the exact same two reasons:

1) to be able to use Alla/FFXIcyclopedia/RandomFFXI community for quest info

2) to be able to IM/TS with friends/family/other players while playing FFXI.

I think, and this may just be my foolish optimism, that the majority of FFXI players don't like seeing people cheat, and that their Windower use is strictly to be able to do those things. I also think, that if SE allowed Windowing, there would be a lot less 3rd party tools used.

[Sabaron]

Re: Windower

...Lol, how can you not. Writing it down takes less time then to take a piss, unless your writing skills are really that bad.

I appear to have misinterpreted your prior post. ^^

In reponse to the actual content; I have probably 50 pieces of paper on my desk right now with stuff written on both sides. I even scrawl out rudimentary maps of pertinent areas, quest flowcharts, and stuff, but it's mostly AH prices and profit margin analysis.

[Aeni]

Re: Windower

Unfortunately, legality doesn't enter into it. SE can ban you for next-to-no reason if they feel like it; the only tangible thing that prevents them from doing so is profit.

I realize that this is the case, but, for the sake of PR and being on good relations with their accountholders (clients) that they will refrain from any and all irrational action. I have yet to see a company behave in such an illogical manner and yet maintain their customer base. Aside from that demonic company, Microsoft, of course.

That said, due to the fact that the game and any associated files can be updated at any point, remotely, it's a trivial matter for them to issue code to detect the presence of the Windower if they so desire.

You may be right and then again, you may be wrong. You have not been privileged to know the inside and out of the programming of the client. AFAIK, with reverse engineering and a lot of technical knowledge, a few handful of people out there (Azaril's group for one) were able to determine that, unfortunately, SE's own client does not allow for such things due to it being, first and foremost, a PS2 game and thus, from top to bottom, it was designed to take advantage of the PS2 hardware and specs. There was little need for any engineer to resolve issues with "outside interference." However, they did make the mistake of giving public access to each and individual files which make up the bulk of the client and this is where the problem stems. Poor programming, IMHO, gave way to easy hacking.

It looks like the only reason they don't start handing out bans by the truckload is because use of the windower on PC platforms has grown so widespread that a sizeable fraction of their PC crowd would have to die, and with them their thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or Yen. Or whatever.

And I've mentioned that as well. It would be foolish simply for SE to isolate individuals that use 3rd party programs that allow windowed mode of the game client. And, unlike Macht's guess of less than 50% of the PC users, it's actually a lot more, if you aren't forgetting the fact that more than 50% of their total accountholders are actually on PS2 & Xbox 360, not the PC platform.

[Sabaron]

Re: Windower

I'm guessing that this might be a reason behind why SE decided not to purposely foil Windower in the last update--I'd say it's something of a passive acceptance unless they've put a detector in <.< >.>