LOLTank

[Icemage]

Re: LOLTank

AGI most definitely does not affect swing speed.

My understanding of it is that it affects ranged accuracy, all defensive skills (Guard, Parry, Shield, Evasion), and may play a role in reducing the amount of critical hits you receive too (since it directly opposes DEX the way VIT opposes STR).


Icemage

[Clever Ninja]

Re: LOLTank

Lol I read this on Gamefaqs yesterday XD. Sucks to have bad tanks. But hey, all that does is make us good tanks look better :D.

Seriously though, if it wasn't for that crappy NIN, that party probably would have been the best party ever. Two NIN's to voke for each other before 37 = Win.

[KoukiRyu]

Re: LOLTank

I was told by someone that I really trust that it does affect swing speed, but it's an extremely small amount...now I dunno who to trust, cause she's right about everything @_@ Also, when I said a -ton- I meant like an extra 50 or so to have a noticable difference, possibly even more I was taught

She just told me one day in LS while we were randomly talking about base stats...I know it doesn't affect acc, but I do trust her when she told me that...but if you guys say that you've never seen nor heard of it...then it's kinda hard for me to believe her x_x;; I have no idea personally, nor have I seen or done any tests on it, I'm just relaying something that was told to me by a smart and veteran XI player

[Aeolus]

Re: LOLTank

Agi doesnt effect acc at all, its Rnged Acc and Evasion. I have never heard of it increasing atk speed either and the fact that every single melee doesnt go overboard on Agi gear for atking kinda doesnt help what your saying.

[neighbortaru]

Re: LOLTank

AGI does not even remotely affect swing speed.

All weapons have a delay which is sync'd with the frame rate with 60 delay == 1 second. Thus you can use this to test for yourself if piling on AGI+ does anything or not by counting your swings.

[Armando]

Re: LOLTank

Yeah, AGI definetely doesn't do anything for attack speed. Your attack speed will ALWAYS correspond go your weapon's Delay (60 Delay = 1 sec), unless you have one of the following: Dual Weild, Haste (and/or March,) and/or Slow (and/or Elegy.)

As for Accuracy, it's basically Accuracy and DEX (every 2 DEX gives 1 Accuracy.) 1 Skill point gives 1 Accuracy (and Attack) up to 200; every point after 200 gives 0.9 Accuracy. Also, just like with Attack, you take an Accuracy penalty for every level the mob is higher than you; thus, for each level you gain, you get 3 to 4 more Acc (depending on wether you get a DEX increase that level and wether or not it's enough to give you one more Acc) AND the gap between you and the mob decreases, further increasing your effective accuracy.

For those wondering, you can calculate your total Accuracy like so:
([DEX/2] + [Skill points below 200] + [Skill points above 200 * 0.9 (if any)] + [Accuracy Bonus trait (if any)] + [Accuracy equipment]) * [1 + Sushi % (if any)]
or, to make it a bit easier to read...
([DEX/2] + [Skill] + [Gear] + [Traits]) * [Sushi]

Accuracy Bonus traits follow the same pattern as Attack/Defense/Evasion Bonus traits:
Accuracy Bonus I: +10
Accuracy Bonus II: +12 (+22 total)
Accuracy Bonus III: +13 (+35 total)
Accuracy Bonus IV: +13 (+48 total)

[Raydeus]

Re: LOLTank

As for Accuracy, it's basically Accuracy and DEX (every 2 DEX gives 1 Accuracy.) 1 Skill point gives 1 Accuracy (and Attack) up to 200; every point after 200 gives 0.9 Accuracy.

Now this I didn't know. It kinda makes sense if you consider lowest skill rating caps at lvl 189, giving a little help to jobs that have a skill rating lower than D.

But then again -7.6 acc for A rank skill @75 (-1 for D rank) isn't too much of a penalty, so what's the point of it?


Alsohow did they come up with these numbers, was it a player study or did SE release them?

[FranckKnight]

Re: LOLTank

Lol I read this on Gamefaqs yesterday XD. Sucks to have bad tanks. But hey, all that does is make us good tanks look better :D.
Seriously though, if it wasn't for that crappy NIN, that party probably would have been the best party ever. Two NIN's to voke for each other before 37 = Win.

Yeah, I posted it on both sites I wanted to have different reactions to this.

And yes, two ninjas should have rocked. One ninja before 37 is a bit lacking because of the lower defense, War and PLD tend to be better.

But as I said before, in the argument of PLD vs NIN, its all mostly a matter of which mob you're killing. Mandies in Kazham rape Ninjas most of the time, because of their dual attacks. But in Garlaige, where mobs have single attacks and no AoE, they should have been much better than this.

I've seen a pair of Ninjas do great in Jungles, I barely had to do any healing at all. I was mostly just tossing Regen, Barsleepra, and an occasional Curaga and Barfira when we fought Goblins Smithies and their gobbie bombs.

Fortunatly for me, I got my static now, and we got a permanent Ninja 37 in it after yesterday's exp session. This should be the last time I get a bad tank for a while, at least until I decide to pick up BRD or RDM (still debating which one).

[Armando]

Re: LOLTank

Now this I didn't know. It kinda makes sense if you consider lowest skill rating caps at lvl 189, giving a little help to jobs that have a skill rating lower than D.

Consider that post-50, A-ranked skills start to go up at much faster intervals, 4-5 per level. On the other hand, most mobs are either WARs or PLDs (crabs and beetles,) and will have C-ranked evasion. They need some sort of penalty to keep our Accuracy from scaling up too quickly for the mob's Evasion, aside from increasing the level difference for 200 EXP per kill.

Alsohow did they come up with these numbers, was it a player study or did SE release them?

Studio Gobli knows all. But, seriously, through /Check messages. If you find the threshold for one of the Evasion messages, you can take off certain ammounts of Acc and then add another factor (+X Accuracy from gear, job trait, +X DEX, etc.) and see how much you need to reach the threshold again. This is also how it was tested that Shield Break is a static -40 Evasion to the mob, and Gravity is a static -10 Evasion. Aggressor is +25 Acc, and Focus and Souleater are +20 as well, if I remember correctly. Full Break is supposedly -20 Evasion (as well as -20 Acc, -12.5% Attack and -12.5% Defense.)

[Aeni]

Re: LOLTank

Studio Gobli knows all. But, seriously, through /Check messages. If you find the threshold for one of the Evasion messages, you can take off certain ammounts of Acc and then add another factor (+X Accuracy from gear, job trait, +X DEX, etc.) and see how much you need to reach the threshold again. This is also how it was tested that Shield Break is a static -40 Evasion to the mob, and Gravity is a static -10 Evasion. Aggressor is +25 Acc, and Focus and Souleater are +20 as well, if I remember correctly. Full Break is supposedly -20 Evasion (as well as -20 Acc, -12.5% Attack and -12.5% Defense.)

I hope they also took into consideration that what cons what changes every 10 levels or so. Monsters become increasingly difficult and drops less exp as you go further up in levels.

[Icemage]

Re: LOLTank

I hope they also took into consideration that what cons what changes every 10 levels or so. Monsters become increasingly difficult and drops less exp as you go further up in levels.

Level doesn't matter because you're not comparing results with different enemies - you're just /checking the same one over and over while wearing different gear. What matters is the key phrases:

"It seems to have low defense"
"It seems to have high defense"
"It seems to have low evasion"
"It seems to have high evasion"

This is how the hidden effects of some items (such as foods like sushi) were researched, and how the hidden ACC bonus from JAs like Souleater were discovered.


Icemage

[Aeni]

Re: LOLTank

Level doesn't matter because you're not comparing results with different enemies - you're just /checking the same one over and over while wearing different gear. What matters is the key phrases:

Ahh, I see what you mean. I guess I was thinking about something else. I missed the previous posts about how they got the 0.9 figure and that was what the reply was meant (intended for) I was thinking about how one derived how you couild guess the accuracy/evasion of mobs.

[Lilani]

Re: LOLTank

Just to say, a bad tank is a bad tank, no matter what fricking job you play. Its not about playing Ninja or Paladin -.-

I completely agree with you on that one. Sure, in certain situations one might make the party more efficiant than the other, but both get the job done. It doesn't matter if you are a static with a PLD, manaburn with a NIN, or a noob party with both: it all depends on how skilled they are and how much they actually know about their job. If they don't know the job, they can't do a good job.

Personally, I don't mind if it's NIN, PLD, or whatever. I almost like PLDs more, though, because the WHM is more inclined to haste them then with a NIN tank (I never quite figured that one out). PLDs are good because they are durable (by that I mean high defense), can heal themselves when things get sticky, and if things begin to go completely wrong they can be invincible and give the party some more time to kill the sucker. Their downfall is that the WHM typically heals them more than with a NIN (I'm not saying always, but still). And, if they are bad and don't have enough defense (I've been seeing a lot of that lately) and they rely on buffs I as as a red mage must even cut in and help heal them. But, again, that's only if they are bad.

NINs are good because they don't take much damage, as long as they are good enough with their shadows. WHMs love NINs because they can sit back and watch the EXP flow in. I think NINs are good because you don't have to heal them very often, but I see parties get lazy with that and make me the primary healer/enfeebler/haster/scapegoat-in-which-we-blame-if-something-goes-wrong. Other than that, I like them just as much as PLDs. The NIN 2hr doesn't buy time like the PLD. It just explodes and makes the rest of the party hope that the NIN had enough HP to kill the mob.

That is one of the downfalls of NIN, IMO. If things are going wrong and they are nearly dead, their 2hr can't save them like PLDs. And, if they do 2hr on low HP, it doesn't benefit anyone but the NIN for giving them no EXP penalty. Their other one downfall is their lower defense; meaning if they don't get their shadows up in time they take a brutal pounding, and FAST. Most of the parties I've had with or without a WHM get subtanks to help with shadows. But still, I've seen too many noob NINs that wait until they are half dead to cast utsusemi.

So no matter what you play, disaster comes if you don't do things right. Get over yourselves, NIN and PLD haters, all tanks are created equal. It's alright to have a preferance, but don't let that lead to discrimination.

[Caspian]

Re: LOLTank

Even if AGI did somehow affect attack rate, it would be easily testable. Get two jobs, a lvl 75 rng, and a lvl 75 job with low base AGI. Deck the rng out in as much AGI as possible (should easily get 40-50 additional AGI from gear at this lvl). Pick a weapon with a reasonably low delay that both jobs can use (ele staves?). Start auto-attacking a high hp, hp def mob that will last a bit. If its true, then eventually the RNG should 'lap' the other job.

Note: I feel quite confident saying AGI plays no role whatsoever in attack speed. But that point has been reiterated many times so far.

[Aeni]

Re: LOLTank

Even if AGI did somehow affect attack rate, it would be easily testable. Get two jobs, a lvl 75 rng, and a lvl 75 job with low base AGI. Deck the rng out in as much AGI as possible (should easily get 40-50 additional AGI from gear at this lvl). Pick a weapon with a reasonably low delay that both jobs can use (ele staves?). Start auto-attacking a high hp, hp def mob that will last a bit. If its true, then eventually the RNG should 'lap' the other job.

Better watch out for players that mysteriously "forget to take off that BRD song/haste+ gear/I didn't know that food had that effect"