What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

[Jugil]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

For a tank job, like most others, a geomancer/elementalist class could definitely serve this role. Give him curative/defensive spells, with some offensive spells. Staying true to form, a geomancer would call upon elementms of his environment to help him out.

An "Earth Shield" ability/spell where he conjurs up a defence boosting shield/shell from the earth below (stronger on earth day and in earth weather) could be implemented. Same concept with wind, but have that act as a weaker type of utsusemi.

Another option for a tank (as well as other roles) could be a morphing class. Have a "shape" for each element, where the abilities of each "shape" are based upon the stats of the element. Earth: Def. VIT (tank), Fire: Atk. STR (spike dmg), Wind: Eva. AGI (range/puller), Lightning: Acc. DEX (DoT dmg), Ice: Magic Atk. INT (nuking), Water: Magic Def. MND (healer/buffer).

Also (unrelated to the tank job) a chemist class could be implemented as a new "mage" job. He could use potions for heals/buffs/debuffs. Furthermore, he could use some other alchemy supplies for nuking, maybe create some kind of offensive dmg "potions" using the elemental animas.

I haven't given these ideas too much thought; so nothing is as well thought out as previous posters. This is just my two cents in like 5 minutes of brain-storming .

[Balfree]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

I love the idea of the job that soaks up the numbers and then unleashes that concentrated power on the mob, that covers up the whole thing, you need to take hits, and then you need to release your stored up power, sounds like a Barbarian or a Berserker :p

[Ziero]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

Approaching this from the other side:
From a game design idea rather than a story idea. It looks like you've come up with idea then given abilitys to fit. NOthing wrong with this but what about approaching it from the Other side. These some not bad tank abilities.
But there are plenty of jobs which can mitigate damage in some way, and grab hate. Thing is they are better at something else. Why don't we see more RDM tanks? because they are busy enfeebing and refreshing. Thats the way they are most efficiently used.
Your ideas could (and i'm not saying for certain they would) fall in to the same trap.
What do the lead tank jobs have in common? THey have to be tanking to make the most of their abilities.
PLD needs to take damage, to use it's uber def. To best use a PLD it needs to be hit.
SAme with NIN it's uber eva and ability to totally negate hits would be underused if it weren't a tank.
SO You need to make a job that not only can hold hate, and somehow negate damage, but one that needs to be hit to function at it's best.

Actually, this was the basis for my Geomancer design. It's main ability is one that only works when being attacked and can be used to either negate, reduce, prevent or even return Damage to the monster attacking it. The specific details for the elemental attributes came after the basic concept while designing it and act to emulate the classic Geomancer's 'gimmick'. The spells I envisioned for the job, which I thought up but do not have access to repaste at the moment, will assist in both it's hate holding and tanking capacities moreso then pure DD.

The reason why nin is so powerful right now is because it was designed as a light DD/Enfeebler, but turned into a tank by players who discovered the power of Utsu. As such it can fit three different roles all at once. This is why the general concensus feels that despite a Pld being able to hold hate better, Nins are the 'superior' tank. Any new tank job would need to have at least some proficiancy in fufilling alternate roles to make it more desireable. As it stands Pld still needs some work to be as 'efficiant' as a nin in many people's eyes because for the most part it's sole and only function is to tank. This is completely ignoring the fact that a fully DD geared, pimped out Pld could be a decent DD in it's own right however.

Anyways, I'll update my original Geo post with the spells I thought up sometime later today.

Edit: Added spells

[Drive]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

I love the idea of the job that soaks up the numbers and then unleashes that concentrated power on the mob, that covers up the whole thing, you need to take hits, and then you need to release your stored up power, sounds like a Barbarian or a Berserker :p

Nah, you mean Beowulf from FFT, did damage equal to what was dealt to him with one of his abilities. Stored up power was monk from FF5.

I still like the idea of using elemental crystals. Using Terrian wouldn't always put you in a the position to tank. Dynamis in the cities would be no go, sand based areas would be harder to tank in, etc.

[Balfree]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

Using Terrian wouldn't always put you in a the position to tank.

Unless things were done. Things we have no clue about.

[Ziero]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

Well my idea doesn't use the specific terrain you stand on, rather it uses the general weather effects of the zone. So anywhere in the zone you are in, you will always have the same effects. And on top of that you would have acces to special equipment, such as the ele staves and the JSE line of 'Bells' ammo equip, to force certain elements into effect.

The only real areas I can think of that would need to be modified in any way are the starting zones, as they have no real natural weather, and a few instanced/closed off zones such as Dynamis and Limbus. For the most part, the majority of zones in the game fall under the effect of at least two different weather types.

[Balfree]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

GEO could simply have certain buffs they can allways use, and benefit from weathers and days to boost their offensive traits.

[Kutch]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

There are two things that define a tank:
(Girls, don't take offence, I'm just not too happy typing him/her all the time)

1. create enough aggro to keep the monster focused on him instead of the rest of the PT for extended periods of time

2. has enough abilities to remain not only alive, but fit for the next fight within as short time as possible - otherwide, PT's won't want him.

---

For (1) - to generate hate, one can:
- Provoke (demands war or war sub)
- heal others
- inflict heavy bursts of damage
- Be helped by a thief

To sustain hate, one needs
- keep doing hate generatng stuff listed above
- Take as little damage as possible (because hate decreases with damage taken)

This is why PLD and NIN are the master tanks of this game. The NIN job is crappy at generating hate compared to an equally well played PLD, but is a blatant master at sustaining hate, because he pracically does not get hit. Because of this, and the lack / needlessness of MP, NIN is the more popular tank, because it means you do not require a powerful healer or MP generator in the party to make sustained exp chains. A PLD on the other hand, requires a refresher and also possibly a healer in the PT to be at his peak efficiency, but it also means that you can arrange a more varied, sustained exp chain PT, because every PT member can now operate at full damage, since the paladin's bag of tricks to sustain and maintain hate are far superior to that of the ninja.

Given these mechanics, and how hate operates today, it's hard, if even impossible to envision a "new" tank without conjuring up new ways of generating / sustaining hate for the game engine.

In addition to that, we have to remember that SE envisions FFXI as a game for heroes only, so there are no dark jobs, nor dark races, like necromancers, or other evildoers.

One possible way, would be to have a job that surpasses the thief and ninja in agility, giving them true evasion abilities at no cost of items or magic, but given the subjbob system, something like this would be immune to melee attacks, and thus would upset the entire player base.

Instead of thinking up new tanking jobs, I would rather focus on the issues of the game it self - in particular the never younger game engine that needs a serious rewrite to accomodate and take advantage of new technology, as well as providing the users with less game interface issues.

One serious plea: Make buffs cost 4 times more MP, but last 10 times longer please. Protect, Haste, shell, shold all have equal durations, allowing even for an hour or two duration. I am thinking a Red Mage would not say no thanks for a 1 hour duration Refresh, even if it costing all of his MP to cast one at the time.

[Drive]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

One serious plea: Make buffs cost 4 times more MP, but last 10 times longer please. Protect, Haste, shell, shold all have equal durations, allowing even for an hour or two duration. I am thinking a Red Mage would not say no thanks for a 1 hour duration Refresh, even if it costing all of his MP to cast one at the time.

Reminds me of Lineage 2 in that all buffs lasted for 20mins(not including newbie guide buffs). Buffers were still very important in parties but would naturally only focus on keeping buffs up or getting paid to buff which happenend a lot before they could get recommendations instead of adena(games money). I don't see buffs lasting like that as a problem but might be for bards since theirs are AoE's. Orc buffs are AoE's as well but they are also the best debuffs(so they have something to do).

[sdillon]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

That's interesting that a lot of people mentioned GeoMancer, as it is one of my first thoughts as well.

A really interesting one that Balfree mentioned is Barbarian. I think an all out 'hulk' like job would be nice too, may increase the galka population as well if being a galka gives you natural affinity towards absorbing damage and then releasing it back at your enemy.

It could really work with the current system too. When mobs hit a tank, we get tp out of it to use our weaponskills. Perhaps for Barbarian job, every hit will give more tp than to other jobs. And their weaponskills or job ability will have something to do with the tp they gain from being hit and can be used to either regain hp or DD depending on how the player wants to use it. Perhaps a new set of job specific weapons? I know its mentioned they dont want to introduce brand new weapon types though.

So much possibilities! But yes, I think another tank job is much needed in this game PLD and NIN... almost everyone have either touched it for a little while or has it at higher level. I myself love tanking so PLD is already up there and now taking NIN up but.. what other choice do I have to play another tank after this /sobs

[Kholdstare]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

I like all of these ideas, but The problem with Geomancer ideas, though, are that they would use MP. In today's game, people want tanks that are self-sufficient. WHMs don't want to have to Cure them, and RDMs don't want to have to Refresh them. Aside from the fact that NIN's ability to dish out damage, yet recievie none essentially makes everything else obsolete, people are just lazy when it comes to taking care of their tank.

I think the Geomancers would be a great idea (more tanks are always good), but I'd personally prefer a fix to PLD (but not a nerf to NIN, unless it's absolutely necessary) so that PLD would be able to out-tank NIN. First off, the shield patches (the ones where you take damage when shielding, and the various sizes having effects on shielding rates) should be outright changed to no damage if you block with a shield, and get rid of or adjust the stupid size difference.

Hell, you don't even have to make it apply to everyone, just PLD. Give PLD a trait, or modify an existing one, that makes shield blocks recieve no recoil damage. Also, make VIT and DEF actually matter, for pete's sake. PLD have the highest defensive stats in the game (except Evasion, but... yeah) and they STILL take damage like a wuss. Maybe a trait that uses a formula involving DEF or VIT, and the end result is taken off of your recieved damage? (not enough to make PLD take no damage from regular hits, but enough to make those hits weaker.)

As for Geomancer, I think that they could be a tank that functions by not only holding hate and reducing damage, but debuffing the opponent to the point where actually getting an attack through is a rarity.

Geomancer

Stats

STR: C
DEX: C
VIT: B
AGI: E
MND: B+
INT: D
CHR: B
HP: C
MP: A


Magic

Geomancy: A+

Weapons

Club: A+ (Access to most WHM hammers and clubs)
Staff: A-
H2H: C-
Axe: D
Dagger: D

Job Abilities

lvl 1 - Nature's Wrath: All hits you do have additional effects of: Fire, Ice, Wind, Earth, Lightning, and Water, at about 30 damage each (grand total of 180 added damage per hit, average). 45 second duration, 2hr recast.

lvl 5 - Thump: Deals damage like a regular hit, occasionally stuns the target and increases enmity (About 1/5 of a Provoke's hate increase). Only works with blunt weapons. 50 second recast.

lvl 20 - Survey: Next Geomancy spell's power is increased based on possible weather effects in the area. (I.e. if you're in La Theine and use this, your water and wind spells will be increased in accuracy, damage, and duration of effect. Like Elemental or Divine seal, but based on weather, yet the result is stronger than that of either seal.) 10 minute recast.


lvl 55 - Agoraphobia: If the next spell you cast is one that's strong against the mob you're fighting (e.g. Bones and fire) there will be an added effect of Terrorize. 5 minute recast.

Job Traits

lvl 10 - Clear Mind
lvl 15 - Defense Bonus
lvl 20 - Clear Mind II
lvl 25 - Auto Regen
lvl 40 - Natural Attunement: Increases resistance to the 6 primary elements (basically, permanent Bar-all. Also affects status resulting from said elements)
lvl 55 - Auto Regen II (increases Auto-Regen to 3 per tic)
lvl 60 - Natural Attunement II

Spells

Note: most of these spells that have effects won't last very long, but most scale to the level of the user. Spells are affected by MND and VIT, as well as Geomancy.

1 - Healing Spring: Heals HP to self only, Water Damage to Enemies. Scales until 27.
3 - Mud Clump: Deals Earth damage, additional effect: Accuracy down
6 - Signal Torch: Fire damage, large enmity grab (like 1/5 of Provoke): Additional effect: Burn.
10 - Blaze Spikes
10 - Diverging Winds: Wind damage and knockback (not as far as Empty Seed, but enough to make the mob have to walk to you to keep attacking.
16 - Shock Spikes
18 - Spark Flash: Lightning Damage and Flash-Style blind.
20 - Ice Spikes:
20 - Avalanche: Ice Damage and Movement Speed down. Doesn't affect Evasion.
24 - Terraform: Stoneskin, physical damage: Slow
27 - Blaze Spikes II
27 - Healing Spring II: Scales up to 50
30 - Eruption: AOE Fire damage
32 - Sonic Whip: Wind Damage and Stun.
36 - Shock Spikes II
42 - Magnet Pull: Electric Damage and Slow
45 - Ice Armor: 30 seconds of 50% damage reduction and Slow on user.
50 - Rock Slide: Earth damage and Paralyze (on par with Hex Eye from Under Observation, but doesn't last as long)
50 - Healing Spring III: scales up to 75
53 - Ice Spikes II
59 - Lavaflow: Fire damage, Knockback, and Bind.
61 - Wind Gouge: Wind Damage, Blind, Accuracy Down
64 - Nerve Shock: Electric Damage and Stun
69 - Fountain of Youth: AOE HP recovery, removes 1 status effect that can be removed with -na spells for party members. AOE Water damage and Dispel for enemies
72 - Freezeblink: AOE Ice damage, Silence, and Flash.
75 - Nature's Grace: AOE Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaveil.

[Hantz]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

just wanna throw this out here aswell:

We asked for BLU, and a pirate job, you saw countless threads for each, it got to a point where people were getting fed up with all the blue mage and pirate stuff. This leads me to believe that if they still plan on making more expansions, if we elaborate our ideas, we might just get what we're asking for. So go ahead and speculate to your heart's content.

That being said, I've kept my subscription to this thread going and I've been reading and re-reading it every day. I'm trying to put a lot of work into an idea for a tanking GEO build that is balanced and not game breaking, but also original and unique in terms of FFXI tanking. Apart from the mechanics of the job, I'm formulating ideas for AF and Relic as well.

To be honest, I'd like this idea to be a true collaboration between all of us here at FFXIO, so I've been checking the builds already presented here and I'm trying to incorporate the best ideas from them without overpowering the job. (I think the idea of returning damage taken was genius).

I've also compiled lists of 'old school' GEO moves to inspire new ideas. I'm trying very hard to give this build its own identity without stepping on any other jobs' toes.

I didn't mean to bump this thread without any solid info, but I just wanted to get you guys thinking about it again before I present something totally broken without your help.

And like Balfree noted, SE listens, especially to the "premiere" sites, and the more solid and believable this turns out, the more likely SE is to think its possible to integrate.

[Hantz]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

Oh and I'd like to take baby steps with presenting these ideas, so we can figure out if they make sense, well before I put all the time into carrying them further. So I'd like to present an idea at a time and see what you all think.

[Aeni]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

Geomancer wouldn't work, because SE is gonna claim you're going to leave the PS2 out of it, since adding in additional data embedded into terrain texture will wreak havoc on the system's memory limitations.

But, more to the point, I'm a strong advocate against anymore new jobs. Once SE starts to cave in to consumer's demands for more novelty, this game will just downward spiral from being a serious mmorpg title into more of a pokemon game (Gotta catch 'em all!)

[raidenn]

Re: What would be cool to have as a new tank job?

How about a giant automaton? Like Giga-sized ones.