new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

[Murphie]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Who says that the most important thing involves low-mid levels? I just don't think that Kings drops are the most important issue in the game. It's important, yes, but not to the exclusion of everything else, which is really all my point has been.

[Taskmage]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Its sort of a cycle. People at 75 quit because there its too exclusive and/or not rewarding enough, making it appear there are more low-levels causing them to ignore the end-game further, then those players who once made the game look low-level focus hit the end-game they quit making the game look low-level focused, and so on. However this isnt' the case with FFXI (yet). You mentallity supports this.

Either way all that needed to be said, has been said.

So if I understand correctly, your assertion is that level 75 players leave the game faster than players at lower level, and that the main reasons are deficiencies in end-game content. I don't think there is enough evidence to make this a solid conclusion.

First of all, the fact that both the total population and the percentage of 71-75 players went down doesn't necessarily mean that 70s quit faster than players in other level brackets. It only shows that 70s are quitting faster than new people are reaching the 70s.

Let's say you have 200 players distributed across 5 level brackets:[code] 1-15 16-30 31-45 46-60 61-75
60 50 40 30 20[/code]At this point, the highest level players make up 10% of the playerbase. In one month, 60 players leave; 30% from each level bracket.[code] 1-15 16-30 31-45 46-60 61-75
-30% 42 35 28 21 14[/code]In the same month 20 players gain enough levels to move up into the next bracket; 10% from each.[code] 1-15 16-30 31-45 46-60 61-75
10%> 38 36 29 22 17[/code]40 new players come in to replace the 60 that left. They'll be in the first bracket.[code] 1-15 16-30 31-45 46-60 61-75
78 36 29 22 17[/code]In reality the new curve would be smoother, since people would move through the lower brackets faster, but we're only really concerned with what happens to the high end. So at the end of this month, the population has gone down 20 players, and the portion of high-end players has dropped from 10% to 9.4% (17/180), the high-end group didn't actually quit faster than any other group, in fact they actually lost the least amount of players.

This is an entirely hypothetical scenario, but the point is that a drop in total population and high-level percentage does not necessarily mean high levels are dropping like flies. A plus B cannot be proven to equal C without more data, specifically the average rate that players gain experience.


The second flaw that I see is not counting any content as beneficial to high levels unless it is exclusive to high levels. You've said that low levels have plenty of worthwhile content in the form of Garrison, Fellowship, EF, quests, etc, but all these things are available for 70+ also. Yet high level players aren't doing them any more than low levels are. Why not? There are two possible explanations. Either that content isn't worthwhile at all, in which case the players that have access to only those options have every right to complain, or the content that high level players have access to is simply more worthwhile, which means they should have no place to complain. You can't say that people who only have cake should be happy with what they have, while saying that people who have both cake and ice cream are being neglected. It doesn't make sense.

The third problem I see is that you're assuming most people who quit do so because they find endgame unsatisfying. There are any number of reasons for someone to quit the game, any of which could apply to a 75 as easily as any other level. Just because someone quits when they're 75 doesn't mean they quit because of being 75. That's post hoc reasoning.

In response to your edit, it was never my arguement that there are too few 75s to matter, only that there are not enough 75s to take precedence over everyone else in the community.

[Caspian]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

I wonder if part of the problem is that SE made what are currently the best items that exist for the jobs that can wear them, and put them in way early in the game's life. Its clear SE can continue to make increasingly difficult fights. JoL, though not truly a difficult nm, it is considered to be more difficult than several HNM's that preceded it. Cerberus and Hydra are supposed to be quite difficult. Lets not even talk about AV. Its almost like they put their backs against a wall. They wanted to give ls's difficulty in newer HNMS (also i forgot about the wyrms), but may have thought putting in even better equipment may have made the game too easy. I'm really just thinking out loud here. It may not be the actual reason, but if it is it might explain their reluctance to change things. Though I do think making the kings more difficult is a good idea. When RMT start taking them down, you know its gotten too easy.

SE's biggest problems it needs to fix?
1. Definately RMT. Though its something you can probably never get rid of, that doesnt mean you stop trying. And if they are able to stop it, it would definately solve many other problems indirectly.
Everything else is secondary, even though everything else is much easier to fix.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Yet high level players aren't doing them any more than low levels are.

High levels are touching it, thought not all of them. The amount of low levels who actively persue this content is far fewer than the amount of high levels who do.

And once again, can anyone name a fix thats more important than making end-game less exclusive and unrewarding? Outside RMT and Job Balance(which in itself, is more of an end-game matter than a low/med-levle matter), nothing comes to mind.

Each and every one of us pays our monthly fee, but spends it differently.

If you want to do storyline. You can do the storyline. If you want to level your fellow. You can level your fellow. If you want to do this and that, you can do this and that... but one thing. End-game, the bottle neck situation. Its the only thing in the game is so populated and poorly made, you can't do it like you can do everything else in the game. And more and more people want to do it, and this causes more and more people to quit. Don't be surprised when you hear people who quit at level 60, because how bad they hear the end-game is.

[Murphie]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Ask 4000 people, get about 4000 varying responses. Personally, I think it's to have your own fun doing whatever activity interests you at the time. Each and every one of us pays our monthly fee, but spends it differently.

The endgame players have their priorities. BG had their opportunity to address them, twice even. People here either share or disagree with those points, after all it was brought up for discussion in the original post. The other community sites will have their opportunity to address their concerns as well.

If you want consensus of agreement on your opinions, then it's more likely to happen with the community that shares them rather than a wider audience like here.

This has really been my whole point the entire time. Everyone plays for different reasons. While kings and their drops are going to be important to some level 75 players, it isn't going to be important to all of them.

Legal Fish - If you're going to just exclude everything except endgame drops, of course it's going to end up being the most important thing.

[Miji]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

The third problem I see is that you're assuming most people who quit do so because they find endgame unsatisfying. There are any number of reasons for someone to quit the game, any of which could apply to a 75 as easily as any other level. Just because someone quits when they're 75 doesn't mean they quit because of being 75. That's post hoc reasoning.

But the 75s are dropping like flies, and no amount of pointing out logical fallacies will change this. I'm not going to put together any argument other than "I see it everyday."

[Murphie]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Yes, but saying "I see a lot of 75s quitting" isn't the same as saying "More 75s are quitting than anyone else."

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Also almost all current HNMs in the game are pretty easy. WoW is a "harder" game, but its very different, however its hard enough that people don't reach the end of a new raid within 2 months. There are no "instant win" jobs like SMN have become on Wyrms(and several CoP missons). WoW is more gear based so its not a perfect anology, but it would be nice if they made balanced HNMs that took real brain power to kill. SE has never ever done this. If you took 10 smart people who know a lot about the game, they could create encounters that could really be called tough and turn all current encounters into what can be called tough.

AV is a sad joke. It switches from unkillable to giant wuss without a lot of HP on a whim. Fights like JoL are snoorefest... just do damage and damage... and try not to fall asleep for 2 hours.

And what I meant was "Rip though current content". The problem is players can't fight the monsters, not that they are running out of monsters to kill.

[Caspian]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

AV is a sad joke. It switches from unkillable to giant wuss without a lot of HP on a whim.

I'm still of the opinion that AV is glitched as hell. Either that or you have to have the exact number of people engaging with exactly the right jobs. They have to have specific weapons equipped and step on the right pixels on the floor in the first few minutes of the fight. Oh, and all those specific things change with every fight.

[Murphie]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

WoW is a "harder" game, but its very different, however its hard enough that people don't reach the end of a new raid within 2 months.

No, they reach the end of it in 2 days. And then they have to run it over and over and over again because the drop rates on gear are so small and there are 39 other players competing against them for the good drops.

There are no "instant win" jobs like SMN have become on Wyrms(and several CoP missons). WoW is more gear based so its not a perfect anology, but it would be nice if they made balanced HNMs that took real brain power to kill. SE has never ever done this. If you took 10 smart people who know a lot about the game, they could create encounters that could really be called tough and turn all current encounters into what can be called tough.

This may be so. But if you go to Blizzard's forums. Or SOE's forums, or even the City of Heroes forums, you'll see someone saying the same thing. No MMO developer seems to know as much as the player-base. Ever. It's a rule.

And what I meant was "Rip though current content". The problem is players can't fight the monsters, not that they are running out of monsters to kill.

I definitely understand this. Having to fight just to claim something that is easy to kill isn't very enjoyable. Totally agreed.

[Taskmage]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

But the 75s are dropping like flies, and no amount of pointing out logical fallacies will change this. I'm not going to put together any argument other than "I see it everyday."

Sure, but I see people in the 30-50 range quit all the time. We see more people quit from the group we know more people in. That doesn't give us a clear picture of who is quitting overall or why.

[Miji]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Sure, but I see people in the 30-50 range quit all the time. We see more people quit from the group we know more people in. That doesn't give us a clear picture of who is quitting overall or why.

Do you know why the 30-50s are quitting? Because everybody knows why the overwhelming majority of 75s are leaving. These are our in-game friends that are leaving. We hear their reasons everyday. Calling for a research group or writing up a contrived scenario to counter such an obvious claim isn't productive.

[Murphie]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

People who reach the endgame of an MMO and then quit aren't really an anomaly. I've seen it in every other MMO as well. Ideally, yes, SE would be able to hold onto those subscriptions, but that doesn't mean that they will do it every time, or even most of the time.

A lot of it has to do with their individual situation: What kind of LS they are in, what kind of friends they have, etc. I know people who have been playing this game for years, and keep leveling new jobs, and doing things at endgame no matter what. And I know folks who reach 75 and get bored and quit. Saying that either is the standard isn't really possible for me.

[Ziero]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

Whatever you all argue about there is one fact, the kings are flawed. They are weak mobs, relativley speaking, that spawn in tiny rooms and drop *THE* best items in game. That in and of itself is the problem with them.

Is it a level wide, game breaking problem? To some. But some people complain you have to work to get an airship pass or that g1 is too hard to do ect.

Does it need fixing? Sure as hell does, as do many other HNMs and big 'boss' fights that drop absolute crap in comparison. Seriously, compare Bahamut's Zagnal with the Ridill. It's almost ridiculous as to how crappy some of the newer gear is compared to older stuff. Throw in the increased difficulty of new fights compared to kings and it's even more worthless to do the 'big' battles.

They need to make kings stronger and change the way they appear. Whether that means making them forced spawn, ENM/BCNM type fights like BRP and others have suggested, or (my personal favorite idea) changing their spawn location with the added possibility of multizone pop areas.

Newer, harder, stronger mobs and fights should drop newer, stronger, better gear, or at least things that can compete with the current stuff. But this hasn't been the cash recently. Any new 'great' gear is easily obtained through repeatetive assaults and most new HNMs drop very little worth mentioning, if anything at all. Endgame content does need more work because much of it s just not worth the effort.

[Legal Fish]

Re: new SE interview by Bercus over on BG

No, they reach the end of it in 2 days.

Can you show me a vid/pic of Kel'Thuzad dying? I don't think anyone has even made it into his chamber yet. Maybe 1 or 2 very hardcore guilds have, I'm pretty sure he has not been defeated.