Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

[Szkol]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Windowers are indeed against the ToS, but it only shows that the ToS is a failure. What if walking forward was suddenly made illegal and you had to walk backwards? I'm sure you'd agree that the law should not have to be followed. That kind of law would exist only for the purpose of being there.

I think it's a little irresponsible to compare using Windowers to walking backwards, as well as calling the ToS a failure. ToS have to use generalizations and far-reaching restrictions not because something like a Windower actually affects the game, but (as someone pointed out) it can be used as a tool to run other hacks or cheat tools, or as a plugin for cheat tools, as someone described.

Furthermore, it's not up to you, or I, or any other player in the community to judge/justify/validate/denouce the ToS. The fact of the matter is, YOU didn't write the game, YOUR servers aren't at risk if someone does manage to get cheats or hacks to work. If I was hosting a game as popular as this, I would likely be even stricter than SE is with my security, b/c I guarantee you that the hardware investments alone are utterly mind-boggling. You have to remember, SE is a business, and they don't make any money on their games if noone can play/enjoy them b/c they are hacked all the time. Their stance on the windower is simply a sound investment on the future of this game, being their income source AND your entertainment source. Any security benefits realized by SE are ultimately benefits to the community.

[soonk]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

when presenting a point against the windower and why its so bad, bringing out the "against ToS" card doesnt help the argument. i think the issue w/ most people is "why is it wrong to use the computer in the manner it was meant to be(called Windows for a reason)?" we all know its against the ToS to use it, but in all honesty it doesnt give any advantage. using certain plugins w/ the windower can give an advantage, but the windower itself is harmless. as with any game, its not hard to cheat, windowed or not. in all honesty i think if you dont talk about it then SE doesnt really care, but if you go around telling everyone basically that youre violating the ToS then of course they would have something to say. cheating on the other hand requires action to be taken. i applaud SE for banning the cheaters. even if they arent perfect(i see a lot of SE bashing around here) at least theyre doing -something- useful to everyone. im actually surprised to see more complaining here than anything. one would think w/ cheaters getting banned people would be happy.

[Feba]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Ok, to the above, Windower is basically undectable, unless SE is running a Warden like program without *ANYONE* noticing, OR them telling us, which would mean that A: SE made an extremely good program, and B: They're most likely breaking the law somewhere along the line.

The program they're detecting isn't windower. It's another program (not going to say the name) that you can purchase for $19.95 from the programer (or steal from a community that is releasing cracks for it).

Is correct, it is the most common hack today, although most people steal it, what you know as "MrArgus" or "PosHack" most likely isn't.

Start up the Windower and call a GM, then tell me if they can see it or not.

I've talked to at least five GMs while using windower, and none of them made a comment about it. I even asked one of them what the rules are regarding using the IME plugin, and they did nothing but tell me it wasn't allowed.

Cheaters come out of the woodwork to validate their actions with some sort of twisted moral argument.

I'd love to hear your argument how using a harmless program that allows you to use your PCas it should be able to be used, and as other programs allow it to be used, is cheating.

I can't watch other stuff on the tv, or listen to music on my tv.

yes you can. Change the channel. Switch back to video one. It's extremely easy to make a setup that allows you to watch TV while logged in, or even have PiP.

Also, does this banning affect people that use the windows clock to modify their speed?

I'm sure it does. SE can only tell what messy business you're doing, not how you're doing it, as shown above. If you're moving around super fast, you might as well be speed hacking, even though it's a result of SE's own crummy programming.

It's because windower opens up the door to make bots/hacks easier.
------------------------------------------------
just wanted to ask a question to the PC users. So, does windower in fact make it
easier to cheat with hacks, and if so, would not allowing people to use windower
help cut down on the number of people using hacks?
------------------------------------------------
Many third-party programs like MrArgus, ToS and Fleetool are very hard/impossible to use when playing on Full Screen mode.

No, windower, by itself, does *NOT* make hacking easier. Actually, it made it harder for a time, because having windower on would mess up the hacks. Now, yes, hacking programs are made with a GUI which is mostly usable when in window mode, but originally they operated (and infact, they still do to some extent) with keyboard shortcuts and text log commands.

If ANY software developer thinks they can seriously stop hacks by making something DOMINATE fullscreen mode, I doubt they have the competence to make pong.


So just to make it clear, Windower does not make hacking easier, and never has.

[Zamphire]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

On hold now 50min.. they must be swarmed.

[little ninja]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Please dont quote a ToS agreement S.E has failed to uphold since day 1. crap like my friend being threatened in shout to have bodily harm done to them. only for S.E to sit by an do jack. OR what about the section that states monopolizing mobs was a vilolation. an i sit here right now. after scanning sky to see the same peeps in Ulli camp. comeone if you wanna inforce 1 part, then inforce it all. yeah i agree to not use 3rd party hacks. an i agree to have my gameplay not screwed over by asshats. an yet it does.

Secondly S.E has No legal right to scan my computer for any known programs. thus how can they tell if you run windows mode or not. if you say nothing an admit to nothing. they have no way of noticing unless they themselves do it illegally. an thats against my rights as a consumer. especially if i nefver aggreed to it. which i have not.

Well cant login now, S.E must have pissed someone off.

[McBride]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

I love you, Feba.

I just don't understand why SE can't get with the times and decide to implement an official windowed structure for the game on PC. They should know by now how many thousands of people use it, and after playing that way, I'm sure many will agree that it would be almost impossible to switch back after 'tasting the forbidden fruit'. Man, that's hot. Personally, I can't even get windower to work because of my strange PC set-up, but I don't need to because I rarely play on PC anyway when my 360 is right beside me. My girlfriend, on the other hand, is a huge, HUGE multitasker. She needs to be able to talk to her friends and play at the same time. So, between using windower and not being able to have her get on at all, she would much rather use the vile program to open and close the program at will than not get on at all. It's natural. I just wish that SE could understand the notion too.

[Szkol]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Can you explain to me how exactly warp hacks hurt you? An NM claim hack would, they incorpate warping sometimes, but just mearly warping from the zone line of West Ron to La Thein doesn't hurt anyone.

It's not that it hurts anyone, but it gives an unfair advantage by affecting the normal course of game-play. You don't affect other players by doing it, but you have something that we don't, and that makes it an unfair advantage. Why should the rest of us have to be stuck walking everywhere we go, obeing the ToS, while someone with a warp hack can zoom through various maps to get where he's going? It gives you an advantage b/c you can save time doing it, and maybe I understand this better than some folks, but time is a pretty precious commodity in any MMORPG. Thus, any 3rd party utility/software you use to "save time" may could pretty easily be equated to adding gil to your pocket.

If I didn't have to walk all the way from Bastok to Valkurm Dunes (taking around 20 mins each way) I would farm the hell out of the items there. And so would everyone else, and then the floor would fall out of the economy. Everything that happens in an MMORPG has an effect on something else (or more likely affects many other things). By warping wherever you want to go, you can farm faster, find parties faster, level faster. And for that matter you could probably escape from a mob who's about to kill you.

To me, this is cheating. Also, though it's unfair for other PC players, it's WAY unfair for console players, who don't even have the option of cheating in any way.

[Etra]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

On hold now 50min.. they must be swarmed.

The current POL issues aren't helping either.

[Feba]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Another comparision, slightly better, would be like a town banning cars. The streets are wide enough, and the cars are widely accepted in most other towns, but this town decided everyone would have to travel by foot, or at best bike, because some people were using cars to do drive-by.


Of course, people can still shoot without a car, the car just made it more convineant.


Other towns still have a problem with shootings, but they realize cars aren't doing any evil by themselves.

[Hearshot]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Another comparision, slightly better, would be like a town banning cars. The streets are wide enough, and the cars are widely accepted in most other towns, but this town decided everyone would have to travel by foot, or at best bike, because some people were using cars to do drive-by.


Of course, people can still shoot without a car, the car just made it more convineant.


Other towns still have a problem with shootings, but they realize cars aren't doing any evil by themselves.

I like the cut of your jib.

[Mazon]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

I like the cut of your jib.

What are you doing looking at his Jib....

Sorry. It had to be said.

Don't hurt me.

[Zamphire]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Another comparision, slightly better, would be like a town banning cars. The streets are wide enough, and the cars are widely accepted in most other towns, but this town decided everyone would have to travel by foot, or at best bike, because some people were using cars to do drive-by.


Of course, people can still shoot without a car, the car just made it more convineant.


Other towns still have a problem with shootings, but they realize cars aren't doing any evil by themselves.

Nice one man, only wish i could have thought of this

[framerate]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

I'm not banned....

Thank God... (but I don't use any malicious third party apps, so I guess I'm in the clear...)

[Macht]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

Yeah, so much posted about the windower. Everything posted in support of windower is nothing new, all of it has been debated. Logic in the debate that is excluded is the fairness.

Debate 1: Why can I window if PS2 player can use the PC next to them
Flaw: Not every PS2 player has a PC next to them, only a few do.

Debate 2: Why am I going to buy a PS2 and FFXI when I have a $1,000+ PC that can run FFXI already. It's just that stupid non-windower crap that stops me.
Flaw: Debate 1, PS2 player using the PC next to them has already done what you are resistant to do. Logic failed.

Debate 3: Did SE really think doing full screen only would stop hacks? Well they failed at that, give us the damn window mode!
Flaw: SE did not do it to stop hacks, design was made with the intent of having as little versioning as possible. PS2 doesn't window it's full screen, the logic of it stopping hacks was a player created logic not the developers.

Debate 4: I use my computer for movies, tv shows, instant messenger, etc.. you telling me I can't while playing?
Rebuttle: Debate 1 & Debate 2, People who are using a PS2 depending on setup are likely to not be able to watch TV or a Movie. The PS2 itself doesn't use any outside instant messaging function (Closest it currently has is the "Friend List Plus" you can access from their website). In all essence it is a very equal playfield.

Debate 5: How is Windower unfair?
Rebuttle: The older windower were all it did was window the program was not that unfair. The newer windower when a person can have a minimap, see everyones TP, see recast times consistantly, and all those other plug-ins is giving that person a unfair advantage. This also makes steps that are really bad when in the hands of a elitest player, they will attempt to micro manage the group creating iritation and ill-will among the party members. Outside of that adds another dimension were players can be ostracized, even though their play statedgy may be excellent and is acomplishing the party's needs if it isn't follow what the elitest expects it can get a player outed from the party for very stupid reasons.

Now because a person using PC can simply get a cheap dumb terminal to handle tasks as websurfing or IMs with friends, and PS2 can do that same this is still quite an even play field. The mudding comes in the in-between areas were a PC user could get out of having another system for porting off websurfing and IMs, by housing on the same system.

I personally wouldn't recommend that because making 1 computer do so much is a heavy load for a single system to be handling. Aside from that a second system provides better network options to segment your speed to make sure the game information has priority. It doesn't matter if your PC itself can run FFXI 3-4 times over, the fact of the matter is your connection will not handle it as effeciently with that many being loaded on a single half-duplex connection.

For purety of not only the game performance running on the system running nothing else also assures game latency to be lower which is also another addition to it's performance. Also turning off Virus Scan is only risky if you have other programs accessing the internet such as email. If you have no other program running at the time you are safe to disable Virus Scan. Virus Scan doesn't prevent a person from hacking your system, that is taken care of by NAT routers, firewalls, proxies, and other additional connection restrictions you place in the router.

As long as you are not starting up any other programs, have any others running, or have used untrustworthy 3rd party programs after temporarily disabling the Virus Scan there should be no risk of starting up FFXI alone. Just make habit to enable the Virus Scan after or to shutdown the system (Shutdown is a good one in that any other programs you may of stopped will startup on their own when you start the system as well as Virus Scan being enabled again).

For my standing I didn't mind windower before it was enhanced to having all these plug-ins. Before all the plug-ins the windower had no real issue of being illegal to a point of being targeted. Now that it provides plug-ins and has so much potential that should of been left alone it is one worthy of being targeted and stopped.

[Herrisa]

Re: Sooooo 2k accounts suspended....

But.. see.. some people in drive-bys are using top-secret satellite imagery and GPS to detect and track down the victim, attaching nitro to their car, and creating an army of bots that shoot anything resembling the victim...

Like I said.. Windower isn't the problem... it's the hacks that use it to cheat that are the problem. Windower is just the messenger, so we're shooting it.