Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

[Aeni]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

Problem WHM has is that RDM and SMN (More RDM then SMN) can effectively do WHMs job on their own.

That's not entirely true, maybe they can replace a WHM but it's at the expense of wasting a lot of MP to compensate the lack of healing abilities, but that doesn't mean they can cover the role entirely.

Macht, RDM/WHM is a terribly inefficient healing machine versus a main WHM. You should take a look at Icemage's own compiling of just how much MP we burn through. A main WHM can be a part of a party's non-stop chaining with a refresher in party, but a RDM main who has to be both the support AND healer is not as efficient (Just because you free up another slot does not mean you're getting the same return on MP usage) The only exception to this is burn parties killing monsters that just die faster than someone can fish them. This is generally in end-game and not indicative of desirable party combinations in the first 75% of the road to level 75...

[Macht]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

That's not entirely true, maybe they can replace a WHM but it's at the expense of wasting a lot of MP to compensate the lack of healing abilities, but that doesn't mean they can cover the role entirely.

Since neither SMN nor RDM get anything better than Raise I and crappy Regen I, no high lvl -ra or -ga spells, that means WHM is the only job that can completely cover the healing role.

For all the other party roles (DD, Tank and support) you have at least 2 jobs that can cover the role entirely.

I can understand SE wanting to preserve the WHM's role, but the same could be said about DD and support jobs, what makes WHM so special?

Point was it's going with the same idea provided above that hinders wHM to reaching end-game as easily. Why bring the paramedics to fix up a scratch on the knees.

The RDM is quite effective at covering the parties healing needs because if they managed their MP right by the time they are desperate for MP they should be able to convert and go right at it all again. WHM is overkill to healing which helps end game but just hits that interchange were their overkill in healing can be given up for more benefits in other ways.

Which is why RDM can be more enticing as a healer replacement just before those big end-game events.

Double Post Edited:

Macht, RDM/WHM is a terribly inefficient healing machine versus a main WHM. You should take a look at Icemage's own compiling of just how much MP we burn through. A main WHM can be a part of a party's non-stop chaining with a refresher in party, but a RDM main who has to be both the support AND healer is not as efficient (Just because you free up another slot does not mean you're getting the same return on MP usage) The only exception to this is burn parties killing monsters that just die faster than someone can fish them. This is generally in end-game and not indicative of desirable party combinations in the first 75% of the road to level 75...

I've read it but like a huge majority of stuff presented is often to littered or results are garbaged. He considers purely only the HP benefit to MP and ignores time progression and monster count. Data is just to primitive, a 2+2=4 setup when it is more abstract then that.

[Aeni]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

I've read it but like a huge majority of stuff presented is often to littered or results are garbaged. He considers purely only the HP benefit to MP and ignores time progression and monster count. Data is just to primitive, a 2+2=4 setup when it is more abstract then that.

I agree with him, because as a main RDM, he pretty much nailed it on the head. I'm not sure, but you probably took a RDM job 60+ so our experiences just are different I guess. If you haven't leveled RDM yet, though, I think you ought to do so before passing judgement.

[dirtyclown]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

Oh shi- Kutch?! Haven't seen you since Legacy of Cid died. I doubt you'd remember me, but it's awesome to know that some of the veteran players are still around. Sorry I can't answer the question. D:

[Hamlet]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

RDM may be less efficient (no regen2 or 3, raises don't factor into healing), but we have convert, so it pretty much evens out. In a melee burn party, which are all the rage, everyone is subbing /nin, so you have to cure less anyway.

In a standard setup, whm is still needed. Also, in some non-standard setups, whm can work well (like tonight, I was pulling in Mamook as rdm/nin and we had a whm that was crucial in the party, although come to think of it, a rdm/whm might've been better, except for the one death. The whm didn't have time to do any regens anyway).

I can understand SE wanting to preserve the WHM's role, but the same could be said about DD and support jobs, what makes WHM so special?

For the same reason that they want to preserve PLD's role. It's because the jobs are so specialized that they can't do anything else effectively (PLD can DD, but nobody believes it- and I personally have not seen it but I do believe it).

It seems that SE has lost control over their own game when it comes to PLDs and WHMs. The players have found better jobs to fill the slots of these two jobs, leaving these ultra-specialiezed jobs in the cold (although I haven't heard of any horror stories of whms lfg yet, but it might happen)

Oh, and RDM will never get anything ever again (except nerfs). SE gave us the ultimate buff with refresh, and it's only downhill from there. I would love to see tier 2 enfeebs, but it's not going to happen.

Oh, one more thing. Lao Tzu said, "Stop thinking, and end your problems."

[MisterCookie]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

Agreed, a whitemage should have more variety in spells, i for one hate the fact that holy got ridiculously nerfed in FFXI, and banish... whats the purpose?...

Hah, a friend and me were discussing the need for banish in this game. While we were farming coffers, whenever a mob cast banish we'd do a bunch of /panics and shout for help.
And as for holy, that pisses me off too...for a spell with such a high mp cost, it does a pitiful amount of damage.

For the same reason that they want to preserve PLD's role. It's because the jobs are so specialized that they can't do anything else effectively (PLD can DD, but nobody believes it- and I personally have not seen it but I do believe it).

Bingo. Imagine if war was a crappy DD and was only decent at tanking. When Pld and Nin became 'the' tank jobs, war would have been rendered useless, except that in reality they were still good DDs. If say whm lost its role as a healer, they have nothing to fall back on and are screwed.

[Raydeus]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

Oh, one more thing. Lao Tzu said, "Stop thinking, and end your problems."

You've been reading Tao-te ching haven't ya?

[Hamlet]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

You've been reading Tao-te ching haven't ya?

Haha, actually I just got that off the internet. I did read it in college. I should check it out again. Eastern philosophy is great.

To finish off the idea of why keeping whm as the best healer is important, healing only takes up one slot in a party. There's always multiple slots for damage dealers, and with the new melee burns, there's 5 slots. There's STILL too many melee, and I've always thought that this game had WAY too many jobs that do the same thing basically (hit things). But, generally speaking, all melee are about equal. With rdm especially as main healer, you can fill the main healing slot AND either get some refreshes, or just a bottomless mp pit of healing with convert, which whm does not have. I don't think SMN was ever going to steal main healing from whm, but I think the only thing stopping RDM from becoming the #1 choice for main healing is the fact that alot of rdms really despise main healing.

[Rai|Kye]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

I've read it but like a huge majority of stuff presented is often to littered or results are garbaged. He considers purely only the HP benefit to MP and ignores time progression and monster count. Data is just to primitive, a 2+2=4 setup when it is more abstract then that.

just for writing that you are my new hero on this bord !

[Macht]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

I agree with him, because as a main RDM, he pretty much nailed it on the head. I'm not sure, but you probably took a RDM job 60+ so our experiences just are different I guess. If you haven't leveled RDM yet, though, I think you ought to do so before passing judgement.

Nah, to be clear that wasn't passing judgement yet. That was only my stated belief that the equation and stucture is inaccurate. There are reason's to conserve MP but when you have trump cards in your back pocket like Convert and Refresh. Essentially giving you full MP again then the need of MP conservation only extends to the length of time till you can convert again.

For WHM MP conservation is a continuous struggle to keep it as high as possible in attempt for it to last out the entire party session or as long as possible. There's a difference there.

[Raydeus]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

That still doesn't answer why is WHM the only healing capable job, but I guess PLD, WHM and BLM are in the same place in this game, at least now that burn parties have taken over the XP scene.

Fights are just way too fast now and those jobs were designed for an older playstyle (more dmg healed, more hate generated, SC MB, etc.), and all those things just don't apply anymore for the most part, specially after ToAU TP-burn areas.

I don't remember the last time anyone bothered with a SC in the new areas, and mobs like Colibri are just not BLM friendly since they can easily mpk the tank if they get their spells mimiced at the wrong time, last BLM I party with fighting Colibri was backup healing instead.

I really don't know what's SE thinking but it would seem things are getting out of control for the most part.

[Karinya]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

Well, I had a long post ready, but realized it was pointless. It's too late for anyone to change what's going into Monday's patch (well, SE could delay and change it, but I bet they won't) and it's useless to speculate without knowing about Monday's changes. Therefore it would be more productive to discuss this later when we have more info and possibly can still get a message to SE about what to put in the *next* major update.

[Mog]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

SE never talked about an ability for WHM to share MP, i'm 95% certain.

However, I hear there was some mention on Monks sharing mp. SOrt of like Sabin's mantra in Final fantasy 6.

[Feba]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

Monks sharing HP, yes.

[Kailea]

Re: Where is the job balance and new spells in LToAU?

yeah it was MNK shareing HP and WHM shareing MP, those where the ideas being thrown around at fan fest