Cheating and Stuff

[Feba]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

FFXI's graphics aren't limited because they wanted it to be "equal", they're limited because they're lazy and don't want to do extra work on PC. FFXI dats are crummy because we have to share with PS2 graphics, because SE doesn't want to do the extra work.


FFXI is poorly programmed, that's just a fact. There's NO reason a game should have to dominate full screen, there's no reason it should use as much processor power as it can, even when it doesn't need it.


Taken from Cliff of Archbell (windower makers)

Interestingly, one of the most simple things I could do (in terms of time required) would be to write a private server base for FFXI. Turns out, though, that this is rather stupid. FFXI is incredibly static, moreso than any other online game in existence, and you wouldn't be able to change the game at all. At most, you could tweak monster stats, and change what people say. But quests? static mobs/npcs in a zone? Items, doors, etc? The zone layout itself? It's all completely static and would require massively complicated client side changes to change anything. So basically, you'd be able to recreate FFXI as it is, with all its flaws. Don't kid yourself into thinking you could make it less laggy or anything. The reason for the lag and problems is completely due to fucking ridiculous clientside and network code.

For instance, they use UDP for essentially all communication with a zone server. For those who don't know, UDP is a network protocol where an individual message is not guaranteed to reach its destination. So with normal UDP if something like an outgoing chat message packet gets dropped, it just disappears forever. Most people who use UDP add Some sort of reliability mechanism, either in the form of a separate TCP channel (which is guaranteed), or via some sort of manual check system to ensure that all packets are sent properly.

Guess how SE does it? They just send "important" messages TWICE. (in the hopes that at least one will get through). Yeah, that's a good way to write network code. Where do these people learn to write this shit? Apparently the same place the network developers did for PSO. This sort of horrific protocol is representative of how the entire game is written. Don't even get me started on how they botched their encryption protocol. I'll only say one thing about it: Electronic Codebook for a STREAM, and with a broken algorithm on top of that. Jesus fucking christ.

Considering that they've pretty much taken FFXI apart by now, they know what they're talking about.


Really, ffxi is shoddy programming, and a crappy port. It's not "Equalism", it's "Laziness" and "stupidity".

[Shopee]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

All I can say is it works fine for me, I have had few issues with it, it's a reliable source of fun, and I couldn't care less about the technicalities.

It may be programmed horribly from a technical standpoint, but it's working fine for me. The only reason I could see someone really complaining about it is out of some desire to self-pleasure themselves with how much they know about programming and how they could have done it better.

[Feba]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I'm just saying that

SEs programing is not piss poor -.- The game was made for PS2 first, then ported over to PC, and they made it Fullscreen only so the experiance would be the same as PS2 (yeah mistake)

*is* wrong, and it does come off as very "fanboi"ish.

[Shopee]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Oh, I wasn't trying to make it sound like people were "self-pleasuring" themselves around here, I understand it's pretty much a statement of facts.

You don't seem like you're "really complaining" about it.

[soonk]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Well, personally, I don't give a rats ass if people .dat swap for "pretties" and "shinies" because ultimately I don't care if I run around in a little pink tutu on your screen. Consequently, if you want to see me run around in a little pink tutu, I wear blessed + nobles combo. Dat swap away.

When you (in the general sense) are now able to do sommething easier than me (in the general sense) because you have .dat swapped, then you are cheating, even if we arne't directly competing. For example, swaping out darters = cheating. Not because I am down there with the darters, trying to outclaim something before you do; but because if I -were- down there with the darters, you'd have unfair advantage. Swapping out chests to big floating arrows that say "LOOK HERE" gives you an unfair advantage over me. That's cheating.

Swapping out chest .dat files to make them look like the dead man's chest from Pirates #2, I don't give a rats ass, cause again, thats just a visual element.

Windower + Plugins is where my views tend to raise eyebrows.

This thread is only starting because we were hijacking a different thread. I was bored, so I started a new one. Continuation of the above quote.

W/ regards to a windower - as in something that allows you to play FFXI in a windowed mode, with no additional functionality, I have no issue with this on a personal level. I'm not saying it should be allowed in any way shape or form - only that I personally do not take issue with it.

My reasoning is faily simple. PS2 users can use thier computers like normal while playing FFXI. As can 360 users. PC users can as well. I don't see that doing so gives an unfair advantage.

W/ regards to pages like the atlas web page (i dunno policies on posting links, so I'm not going to post it) I don't see it any different than opening up a hard copy of the atlas which has all the same material. So again, on a personal level, I don't care if you use it. The same goes for programs that display maps on a second monitor.

Likewise, I take no issue on a personal level with chat loggers, parsers, etc, as they don't in my opinion give an extra or unfair advantage.

Overlay programs that show recast timers - again, no issue with this, as the information is already available to you on your screen, at any time within the game. How you choose to display that information is up to you.

DrawDistance, which increases the draw distance of non-mob, non-npc, non-PC objects... I don't care. If anything it makes it harder for you to see things. I also don't care if these remove weather effects, since you can turn those off anyhow.

Things like TParty, shadow counters, etc, I -do- have a problem with on a personal level. You can't see another person's TP unless they tell you, so you shouldn't be able to unless they tell you. Like wise, there is no "shadow counter" any where on your screen normally, so you shouldn't have one 3rd party either.

I guess bassicly my personal opinion on the matter is if you can see it on your screen whenever you want, and all you do is change the way it looks - aka, make it look prettier, or make it display in a different place - then I don't care.

I disagree with the adding of information or the complete or partial removal of graphics that allow you so see things you can't normally see. Which ultimately is why I don't care about things like BloodPace but I do about TParty and like programs.

Anyhow. Like I said, my views are a little different than most. I figure most people are either hardcore cheats/hacks are bad, or are Just windower and .dat swaps are OK. I guess I've just narrowed it down specificly is all.

Consequently, yes, I'm aware that even my "personal" OK's are against the ToS. Cheating is cheat if SE says its Cheatin, and just because I -personally- don't have a problem with it, I'm not condoning it or suggest anyone base thier descision to cheat or not to cheat off anything I friggin' say. Cause yeah. It'd be stupid to. XD

back to the topic at hand

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

People asked what was so bad with windower.

I explained that it made for a homemade speedhack (as Feba clarified), and alluded to the more potent things that could be done by knowing how to mess with your clock settings (and other things).

I'm really not self pleasuring Shopee. Just explaining why something is. Trust me.. no *fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap*fap* going on this side of the screen on this topic. Really. Not my cup of tea.

Where do I draw the line with cheating - intention.

I don't consider running a third party program to stop your programs crashing because shutting down your AV to make it run cheating.

I do consider the intention to have an advantage other players don't have so.

[Kailea]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I'm sorry this is extremely off-topic. But Kailea your Avatar is really really cute! Did you make it yourself or did you find it somewhere, and if so where? I'd love to have one like that for me and my bf. ^^

you can go here

http://www.tektek.org/dream/dream.php

its a avatar creater for the game Gaia Online, dont like the game, but this was very nice

Double Post Edited:

FFXI's graphics aren't limited because they wanted it to be "equal", they're limited because they're lazy and don't want to do extra work on PC. FFXI dats are crummy because we have to share with PS2 graphics, because SE doesn't want to do the extra work.


FFXI is poorly programmed, that's just a fact. There's NO reason a game should have to dominate full screen, there's no reason it should use as much processor power as it can, even when it doesn't need it.


Taken from Cliff of Archbell (windower makers)Considering that they've pretty much taken FFXI apart by now, they know what they're talking about.


Really, ffxi is shoddy programming, and a crappy port. It's not "Equalism", it's "Laziness" and "stupidity".

acualy they left it alone, because makeing new texture for PC, would be double the work come update time, and that would be bad on their part, also, why is seeing things in a logical way fanboyish -.- really I just look at things in a full perspective from all sides, its why most of the time I say something completly against others.......the game is poory prgramed from a PC point of view just like FFVII and FFVIII, but does taht keep you all from playing it? no ^.^ now anyway back on topic now -.-

as long as you are not gaining an unfair advantage, I dont see it as cheating

[ikkleste]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

as long as you are not gaining an unfair advantage, I dont see it as cheating

but by who's definition of "unfair advantage"? I can't see anyone elses TP unless they tell me, but they can see mine? Advantage?
I might define that as an advantage while others might not.
The guy using speedhacks might not define it as advantage if he only uses it to get about.

Out of the 500,000 people playing theres going to be 1000's of deffinitions of what different people call unfair.
So technically speaking you have to set a bench mark so that everyone knows what is cheating. Thats what the TOS is for.

[Linra]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

but by who's definition of "unfair advantage"? I can't see anyone elses TP unless they tell me, but they can see mine? Advantage?
I might define that as an advantage while others might not.
The guy using speedhacks might not define it as advantage if he only uses it to get about.

Out of the 500,000 people playing theres going to be 1000's of deffinitions of what different people call unfair.
So technically speaking you have to set a bench mark so that everyone knows what is cheating. Thats what the TOS is for.

Yeah but ask yourself, does the advantage actually make a difference? To me, if you have an advantage but it doesn't help you at all or it's so small it doesn't make a difference anyway, it's not cheating.

Seeing TP, advantage I guess it could be called so. But unless both people have it, you still need to talk in party chat to make sure your counter-part is prepared. So it actually doesn't make any difference at all. If that crosses the cheating line, it passes it so slightly it doesn't matter.

Speed hacking, no question. No matter what the reason speed hacking is wrong no matter what you're doing with it.

Really.... I'm sure we can all agree that if SqareEnix would just stop being so hard headed and just give PC users what they should have had all along, 90-95% of people who use Windower would stop. Me included.

you can go here

http://www.tektek.org/dream/dream.php

its a avatar creater for the game Gaia Online, dont like the game, but this was very nice

Thank you! ^^

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Yeah but ask yourself, does the advantage actually make a difference? To me, if you have an advantage but it doesn't help you at all or it's so small it doesn't make a difference anyway, it's not cheating.

Well then by definition it wouldn't be an advantage would it -.-

[Rai|Kye]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news8139.shtml

Jul. 21, 2006 06:00 [PDT] From: FINAL FANTASY XI


About Action Taken Against Third-Party Tool Users



Today, a number of accounts which were confirmed to have violated the user agreement by using unauthorized third-party software tools within FINAL FANTASY XI to enable abnormal in-game movement were discovered and have been permanently suspended.

Based on the results of an investigation, over 2,000 PlayOnline accounts have been either suspended or terminated on Jul. 21, 2006 for the malicious and intentional use of these third-party tools.

We would like to take this time to remind our players that the use of any third-party tools will not only destroy the in-game balance, but will also encourage RMT (Real Money Trade) activities. We will continue to take strict actions against those individuals that we have confirmed to have used such tools.

Please note that some of these third-party tools may cause character information to be altered, erased, or personal information to be leaked to unwanted third parties. If you come across a third-party tool over the Internet, we ask that you please refrain from the download of such a tool, no matter how minor it may appear to be.

To ensure our customers could enjoy their games safely, we will continue to apply measurements to combat these third-party tools and violations.

We thank you for your cooperation and understanding in this matter.

[ikkleste]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Yeah but ask yourself, does the advantage actually make a difference? To me, if you have an advantage but it doesn't help you at all or it's so small it doesn't make a difference anyway, it's not cheating.

Seeing TP, advantage I guess it could be called so. But unless both people have it, you still need to talk in party chat to make sure your counter-part is prepared. So it actually doesn't make any difference at all. If that crosses the cheating line, it passes it so slightly it doesn't matter.

So a party (call it a static who are used to each other, and trust teh other person to skill chain at the same time) with TPparty, versus a similar party without TPparty? Still no advantage?

Speed hacking, no question. No matter what the reason speed hacking is wrong no matter what you're doing with it.

You say TPparty is an advantage but only so small as it doesn't matter, but what if someone argues that they just use it to get from A to B quicker and that the advantage that it gives is so small as not to matter? You could disagree with them, but their argument is as valid as yours.

Really.... I'm sure we can all agree that if SqareEnix would just stop being so hard headed and just give PC users what they should have had all along, 90-95% of people who use Windower would stop. Me included.

Totally, if you look back a couple of pages, i actually make the very same argument and take it further to say that if they included a windower in the first place most people wouldn't feel the need to go for addins at all. If someone wants to cheat (and i mean properly cheat, semantics of TPparty aside) they will windower or not.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

A fair amount might still use recast timers because /recast and keeping menus open is a.) clunky, or b.) makes it hard to see anything, but other than that I think a lot of people who "toe the line" would stop.

[Linra]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

You say TPparty is an advantage but only so small as it doesn't matter, but what if someone argues that they just use it to get from A to B quicker and that the advantage that it gives is so small as not to matter? You could disagree with them, but their argument is as valid as yours.

Point A, next to me. Point B, next to a NM. That in itself is exteremly over the line. Other then the party not having to say anything in party chat, which I would still find unusual even for a static (even in my static we still always at least say "Ready?") You can't really use TP to gain an edge over someone else... at least not that I can see...

Well then by definition it wouldn't be an advantage would it -.-

Ummm.....

[ikkleste]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

hypothetically lets say he doesn't... he just uses it for running to camps, and generally getting around.

In any case the actual example isn't important. The point is that different people will have a different veiw of what is fair. Agreed?

So the only way you can have a deffinition of what is cheating is if a concensus can be reached (obviously not going by this thread) or by an authority figure imposing a set of rules (which we have in the form of the TOS).

Each person is entitled to their own version of what is fair, but when you ask "what is cheating" theres only one answer. Stuff which breaks the rules (in this case the TOS).