Cheating and Stuff

[sevenpointflaw]

Well, personally, I don't give a rats ass if people .dat swap for "pretties" and "shinies" because ultimately I don't care if I run around in a little pink tutu on your screen. Consequently, if you want to see me run around in a little pink tutu, I wear blessed + nobles combo. Dat swap away.

When you (in the general sense) are now able to do sommething easier than me (in the general sense) because you have .dat swapped, then you are cheating, even if we arne't directly competing. For example, swaping out darters = cheating. Not because I am down there with the darters, trying to outclaim something before you do; but because if I -were- down there with the darters, you'd have unfair advantage. Swapping out chests to big floating arrows that say "LOOK HERE" gives you an unfair advantage over me. That's cheating.

Swapping out chest .dat files to make them look like the dead man's chest from Pirates #2, I don't give a rats ass, cause again, thats just a visual element.

Windower + Plugins is where my views tend to raise eyebrows.

This thread is only starting because we were hijacking a different thread. I was bored, so I started a new one. Continuation of the above quote.

W/ regards to a windower - as in something that allows you to play FFXI in a windowed mode, with no additional functionality, I have no issue with this on a personal level. I'm not saying it should be allowed in any way shape or form - only that I personally do not take issue with it.

My reasoning is faily simple. PS2 users can use thier computers like normal while playing FFXI. As can 360 users. PC users can as well. I don't see that doing so gives an unfair advantage.

W/ regards to pages like the atlas web page (i dunno policies on posting links, so I'm not going to post it) I don't see it any different than opening up a hard copy of the atlas which has all the same material. So again, on a personal level, I don't care if you use it. The same goes for programs that display maps on a second monitor.

Likewise, I take no issue on a personal level with chat loggers, parsers, etc, as they don't in my opinion give an extra or unfair advantage.

Overlay programs that show recast timers - again, no issue with this, as the information is already available to you on your screen, at any time within the game. How you choose to display that information is up to you.

DrawDistance, which increases the draw distance of non-mob, non-npc, non-PC objects... I don't care. If anything it makes it harder for you to see things. I also don't care if these remove weather effects, since you can turn those off anyhow.

Things like TParty, shadow counters, etc, I -do- have a problem with on a personal level. You can't see another person's TP unless they tell you, so you shouldn't be able to unless they tell you. Like wise, there is no "shadow counter" any where on your screen normally, so you shouldn't have one 3rd party either.

I guess bassicly my personal opinion on the matter is if you can see it on your screen whenever you want, and all you do is change the way it looks - aka, make it look prettier, or make it display in a different place - then I don't care.

I disagree with the adding of information or the complete or partial removal of graphics that allow you so see things you can't normally see. Which ultimately is why I don't care about things like BloodPace but I do about TParty and like programs.

Anyhow. Like I said, my views are a little different than most. I figure most people are either hardcore cheats/hacks are bad, or are Just windower and .dat swaps are OK. I guess I've just narrowed it down specificly is all.

Consequently, yes, I'm aware that even my "personal" OK's are against the ToS. Cheating is cheat if SE says its Cheatin, and just because I -personally- don't have a problem with it, I'm not condoning it or suggest anyone base thier descision to cheat or not to cheat off anything I friggin' say. Cause yeah. It'd be stupid to. XD

[Aeolus]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Windower+.dat swapping would be the furthest I go. TP plugin comes standard with windower and I still wait for ppl to say their TP cause you dont know if they are ready. Just nice to have a heads up if someone doesnt say TP till their 100+.

[Kailea]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I agree with you sevenpointflaw, thats how I am about most of this.

[Ellipses]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I concur. Except I'm more iffy on DrawDistance. I'm not entirely familiar with it, but if it lets you get by weather effects completely, not so cool. (Normally, if you turn weather effects off, you still get the limited visibility range they incur, you just don't see the weather itself.)

[Ashady]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

ive been hearing about pressing thee window button and alt tabbing does somthign to the game. But i play most games in windowed mode so its easier to change the music, or check somthing on the internet easier. will that effect the way the game is played (ie exploit)?

I dont want to do this unintentionally (or intentionally)

[Murphie]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I concur. Except I'm more iffy on DrawDistance. I'm not entirely familiar with it, but if it lets you get by weather effects completely, not so cool. (Normally, if you turn weather effects off, you still get the limited visibility range they incur, you just don't see the weather itself.)

Would this provide an unfair advantage to other players? I haven't really ever been in a situation where being able to see farther would have helped me beat another player to a claim or something. I mean, if I'm too far away to see it, I wouldn't be able to claim it anyway.

I'd love to be able to see further into the horizon though. It's much prettier, IMO. At least from what I've seen of DrawDistance screens.

[Neomage]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I tend to devide "cheating" into three categories.

The first is what I consider modifcations should be allowed by SE. This generally includes Windower(no plug-ins, expect draw-distance), .Dat mods(not the mimic/real treasure chests, just normal for fun mods.) and on-screen Recast Timers(instead of a command).

The second is what I think of as "Acceptable" cheats, but cheats nonetheless. These include Ustu counters, Harmless bots(such as SMN skillup bots), Monster Scanners(immitation of Widescan) and under very, very rare circumstances, Draw-in and Position hacking, and ToD counters, and .Dat editing(such as the treasure flags in assault, and removing darters) and Plug-ins.

The third I think of as harmful cheating. This group contains botting(Fish and NM), fleehacking, RMT, Telehacking, most of the time Position and Draw-In hacking, Packet Injection, Packet Sniffing, and others I'm sure I'm forgetting. I feel that those using this group of cheats should be banned without suspention or face another penalty + suspention.

The main diffrence I feel is that the first two groups, though they can give a small unfair advantage, can be used to help players without ruining the game for others. If you swap out the chests and win Golden Salvage, yeah it's cheating. But it's not hurting others doing the assault, onlymaking it easier for you and your group. Utsu counters? They show how much sheihei and shadows are left, yes it makesit easier but it dosn't make it harder for others. The third group, such as botting and fleehacking, DOES give a major unfair advantage that does penalize other people's gameplay.

[Zamphire]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

ive been hearing about pressing thee window button and alt tabbing does somthign to the game. But i play most games in windowed mode so its easier to change the music, or check somthing on the internet easier. will that effect the way the game is played (ie exploit)?

I dont want to do this unintentionally (or intentionally)

FFXI unlike most other games doesn't alow you to lose focus of the game. If you alt+tab, press Alt+Ctrl+Del, or you get a pop up the game will completly crash. There are 3rd party programs that will put the game in a window, but they are considered illegal and you can get banned for it.

[Ellipses]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Would this provide an unfair advantage to other players? I haven't really ever been in a situation where being able to see farther would have helped me beat another player to a claim or something. I mean, if I'm too far away to see it, I wouldn't be able to claim it anyway.

I'd love to be able to see further into the horizon though. It's much prettier, IMO. At least from what I've seen of DrawDistance screens.

If, in the midst of a rainstorm, one player has to stop and keep checking a map or otherwise getting his bearings, while the other can just keep running toward a distant landmark he shouldn't be able to see, I'd call that an unfair advantage. Granted, it's not a massively tangible benefit. But delineating "cheating" vs. "not cheating" based solely on the actual rewards reaped is kind of shady (I was only fleehacking so I could get back to my moghouse and log out sooner!). And that's where my personal line is drawn.

Edit: To make it clear, I'm not talking about simply increasing draw distance. That, to me, is sort of equivalent to my playing at a nice, high resolution where I can actually read distant mob's names without having to target them, unlike on PS2. What I'm talking about is if the DrawDistance plugin lets you completely remove weather effects and the limited visibility that comes with them (even when they're turned off). I don't know if it allows you to do that or not, which is why I said I'm iffy on it.

[Hantz]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Is it cheating if I leave "We Katamari" in my PS2 while I play?

/panic (does the floppy hand Mithra geek out!)

I think being on a PS2 is crappy enough. It's almost a complete non-issue for me to decide what I consider 'unfair' uses on the PC. Everything about the game is better for you already, it's like 'making the sky blue-er.'

[Murphie]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I didn't realize that turning off weather effects (something that PS2 users can't do anyway) still kept the same limited visibiliy. I learn something new every day!

And I agree, however, re: fine-line cheating still being cheating.

[Ziero]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I'ma hafta agree with the OP's concept of what's 'cheating' or not. Only things I have are the windower, with TPparty and other plugins removed, and some armor dat swaps. Anything else, except the draw distance thing which I don't use cause my com prolly can't handle it, gives you an unfair advantage over others. Though some things are worse then others and some things are just totally uneeded. I mean is it really that hard to count your own shadows?

Edit: I see no difference in draw distance with weather on or off. The only thing that changes on my screen when I turn the weather off is that it, and the horrid lag that comes with it, are no longer on my screen. I don't see doubling draw distance as a hack either because all it lets you do is see further into the scenery. NPCs, PCs and such still don't become visable until they are within their normal range. Draw distance gives no unfair advantage that you can't obtain by simply knowing the area.

[DakAttack]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I didn't have a limited visibilty until I upgrade my graphics card, I could see all the landscaping poping in the distance. Increasing the drawdistance can make the game prettier, but only for screenshots. There's certain areas where something rises in the distance that's completely missing everything around it that players wouldn't normally see, and it looks strange.

[Murphie]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I often turn the clipping plane way down in my settings when in places like Valkurm (since it's laggy enough as it is). It's always funny to see tunnels appear before the landmasses that they are tunneling through.

Hopefully when I get my new video card later this week, I won't have to turn the clipping plane down anymore. We'll see.

[Ellipses]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I can see the blades of the windmills in Konschtat, the tunnels in Valkurm, and the windows of Outposts at night, from anywhere in the zone as long as I have a line of sight to them. It's freakin' weird.

Now that I'm thinking about it more, I guess my little discourse on weather effects doesn't make any sense. It's not the landscape draw distance that decreases even with them off, it's how close you have to be to a mob to see it. The DrawDistance plugin doesn't effect that, so, y'know, nevermind.