Cheating and Stuff

[TenTako]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

This game sucks ass, but with all the work i put in, i dont think i'll be quitting just quite yet. On the other hand, i would of already quit if it wasnt for hacks such as the ones that were previously mantioned. Dont you just love it taking 20min to get from Jeuno to Sky with choco? :D


edit-- and by my random slandering comment about sucking ass, dont think im just going out on a whim here, if you want i can write you a 20 page essay of why FFXI is too bad a game to charge a 12.99 monthly fee.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

you have to take proper care of the keys, and not be too harsh on them (nails, etc), but it's not that bad.

I do beleive they're just transparent keys painted black (except for the symbol on it), but they last a decent time. I got mine for xmas, and it's still in pretty good shape. my most damaged keys are "," and "." because I typically hit those with my nail, or scrape my nail along them.Even then, the symbols are still readable, and the paint wearing isn't that bad.

if you do own a G15, i'd recommend you take the keys out and wash them everynow and then (and vacuum/wipe the keyboard itself too), to keep it in good condition. Since, in this case, it's actually more worthwhile to clean than to just buy a new one.

All good and solid advice, but and there is a but. Never vacuum something with electronic components on since this creates static discharges and can harm curcuits very very badly.

If you need to dust something with electronic curcuits on just use compressed air in a plastic container since this minimizes static discharges and increase the lifespan of curcuits compared to vacuuming them.

[Feba]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Eh, didn't harm my keyboard, but I kept the tip away from the keyboard.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Eh, didn't harm my keyboard, but I kept the tip away from the keyboard.

ESD Damage (Electric Static Discharge) usually never shows right now, it weakens a curcuit or burns it out completely. If it didn't get fried right away then when currency is fed through it it will continue to weaken more and more until it one day is completely fried.

Most people that says "vacuuming did nothing to my parts" might have been lucky, or the damage is already there but they wont notice it until days, weeks or months later when the curcuits finally give in.

And ESD Damage can never be repaired, it is basically buy new and replace (unless you would like to replace parts o curcuit level).

[nazlfrag]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

--- Long post warning! ---

Just have to respond to a few points first, even though it's probably already been said <.< Firstly, I agree with the OP, mods that do not go above or beyond what is avaliable ingame and provide no more than cosmetic changes are acceptable. I draw the line shorter than the following, though:

The second is what I think of as "Acceptable" cheats, but cheats nonetheless. These include Ustu counters, Harmless bots(such as SMN skillup bots), Monster Scanners(immitation of Widescan) and under very, very rare circumstances, Draw-in and Position hacking, and ToD counters, and .Dat editing(such as the treasure flags in assault, and removing darters) and Plug-ins.

I disagree. These cheats of the .dats are detrimental to other players, especially when competing for coffers or NM spawns. TOD counters again disadvantage other players who could never get as prescise a measure. With widescan, it gains advantages in NM hunting in that others will have to fight the NM with a rng or bst main or sub, whereas you can pick any job combo and retain a core ability these jobs are used for. Even Utsu counters and TP plugins don't directly hinder anyone, yet I find them unacceptable as they do give an advantage, an unfair one if not everyone can have it. I'm not too familiar with draw-in and position hacks, if you mean warp hacks they are squarely on the wrong side of the line, no exceptions. The skillup-bot is no different to a fishing bot. You can't have one without the other. Hey, I just use my fishbot to help cap fishing, not to ruin the economy! What happens when the summoner can solo bcnm's for cash thanks to his bot?

It seems you split the 'Acceptable' and 'Unacceptable' into 'Soft' and 'Hard' cheats respectively. Just because your cheat isn't blatantly ruining someones game doesn't make cheating acceptable. Just because the damage is inderect doesn't mean it doesn't do damage. An example is how does fishbotting hurts anyone else, all it does is bring gil and skillups to the botter, right? Wrong, and you know it. This applies across the board.

The main diffrence I feel is that the first two groups, though they can give a small unfair advantage, can be used to help players without ruining the game for others.

If you can easily find & outclaim NMs after removing all other mobs in the area through .dat mods and knowing its TOD to the second, all while consistently beating people to coffers etc., you can easily ruin the game for others. Why would you think otherwise?

Now, while I do consider it a violation of the ToS, I choose to overlook it when it comes to friends and such. I value their friendship, and that's more important to me than a matter of moral clarity. I realize that not everyone puts the same value on these things than I do (and certain people put a lot more! ^^), so I just ignore it.

There is the letter and the spirit of the law, two very different things. Judges regularly ignore the written law to apply a sense of justice regarding the intention of that law. You should do the same with your friends. If they are merely alt-tabbing, they are just enhancing their game, they are not guilty of cheating. They are still playing a fair and even game. They have broken the letter of the TOS, but not the spirit of the TOS. A fair and impartial judge should find them innocent as well. Just hope they don't get [GM]Dave ^^

They know they have the power to make some very powerful hacks with windower, they know ffxi better than most anyone that didn't make it, and they don't want it to happen. ... Unlimited macros are there to make eq swaps and things such as that possible, not to encourage botting.

I believe this, as windower seems very watered down for its potential. Problem is, other people can write windower plugins too, right? Hell of a lot easier than windower from scratch. They should remove all plugin features if they really want to stop this from happening. Likewise, they should limit macro sizes. While not encouraging bots, they still allow the ability to bot with endless macros. As to how many lines are too many, any that allow unattended behaviour. You don't need to know where to draw the line, it's already there. 8 is too many.

Having windower isn't an issue for me as I have multiple computers. A 2nd hand mac is good for a cheap (I got my G4 for $30) windower replacement. On the plugins, TP view feels to me like sneaking a look at your partners cards in bridge. It just doesn't feel right, though I guess it's borderline acceptable (that damn grey area >.<). Draw distance, if gameplay is unaffected, and IME are the only two plugins I would ever consider using (and cosmetic .dat changes). I can't see why SE would not include at least IME as a feature. Making it look pretty and typing in Japanese are merely enhancments, not cheats.

I understand the ban on windower and alt-tab, I assume it's in place to make cheating both more difficult (that never stops hackers for long though) and easier to identify and stop (which it surely does). Allowing alt-tab would make cheating much harder to identify, and could even make cheats completlely undetectable. Still, windower is also an enhancment not a cheat, and I have no problem with it in essence.

Everything else anyone mentioned should be a bannable offence.

[Bricklayer]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I would love to be able to alt-tab on my PC, but I also have to agree that if it violates the ToS, then it is "wrong," wherein "wrong" is defined by those who wrote the ToS. Probably the best thing to do is lobby for change (not that this will necessarily work with SE). It's like going 15 over in California (most people do), or violating copyright law. You probably won't be prosecuted, but it doesn't mean it can't happen.

This being said, if the ToS did not specifically ban 3rd party addins or alterations to the game, but instead listed specific types of non-contractual modifications or general restrictions on types of modifications, then I would agree that, if a modification does not infringe on another player's ability to play the game (and I would include not putting one player at an advantage over another beyond what is capable through original game modification features), then the modification should be allowed. If a player decides to play entirely by clicking, then I do not expect other players to handicap themselves by not using macros, so that they don't have an advantage over Clickers. Existing mods that I consider as meeting the above requirement are alt-tab mods and IME* mods for PC's (I play on a PC, so I have no reference for consoles). There may be others, but those are two that I would lobby SE to build in to future releases.


* I don't speak Japanese, but I do RWLS Chinese, and it would be nice to respond with some Hanzi (or Kanji) once in a while. Of course, I could just install the Japanese version (right?), but $$$ plus update time are prohibitive.

Double Post Edited:

ESD Damage (Electric Static Discharge) usually never shows right now, it weakens a curcuit or burns it out completely. If it didn't get fried right away then when currency is fed through it it will continue to weaken more and more until it one day is completely fried.

Most people that says "vacuuming did nothing to my parts" might have been lucky, or the damage is already there but they wont notice it until days, weeks or months later when the curcuits finally give in.

And ESD Damage can never be repaired, it is basically buy new and replace (unless you would like to replace parts o curcuit level).

I completely agree with the statements about the dangers of ESD to electronic circuits. However, and here I may get to show my ignorance, I do have a couple of arguments against how much damage could be done to a keyboard by a vacuum cleaner (this sounds ridiculous as I type it).

1) ESD must reach circuit components. Now, as I understand it, ESD is typically considered a discharge from a surface of an electrically charged insulator, such as a plastic vacuum tube, to a sensitive electronic component, e.g. an IC or chip capacitor. For the discharge to occur, the charge must be sufficiently close to an electrical component to "break down" the intermediate material between the charged surface and the component. In most assembled electronics, e.g. a keyboard, the electronic components are insulated from the outside world by a layer of plastic or metal. Though the charge built up on a vacuum is high, I doubt it would discharge through over 1000um of plastic.

2) If ESD were a problem in keyboards - or cell phones, PDA's, PSP's, you get the idea - it would show up long before the vacuum, simply because the most common source of ESD is us! Unless you are playing FFXI in an ESD-safe environment, i.e. your skin and clothes are grounded, you are constantly exposing your keyboard (I hesitate to say internal circuitry) to electrostatic charges built up on your skin and clothing.

All good and solid advice, but and there is a but. Never vacuum something with electronic components on since this creates static discharges and can harm curcuits very very badly.

If you need to dust something with electronic curcuits on just use compressed air in a plastic container since this minimizes static discharges and increase the lifespan of curcuits compared to vacuuming them.

Just wonder how much electrical charge builds up on that long, plastic tube spraying compressed air at your very exposed electronic components...? Based on my understanding of ESD, I wouldn't feel safe using that can near my computer. For that matter, never talk on a cell phone near a computer monitor, or on a dry day (hair builds up a lot of static).

Sorry for getting off topic here, but it seemed important to share...

[Nazo]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Why the hell did they get rid of the /pol command for PC? That was really useful to be able to alt-tab out of the game look something up and then get back in with minimum fuss. Now I have to log out of the game completely or dig my laptop out. Are they trying to encourage people to use windowers?

[Feba]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

nazl: I'm pretty sure they're withholding MOST of the WindowerHelper (basically plugin maker iirc) features, if not all, or only trusting them to a few people.


Also, about bots.. No offense, but if you seriously try to bot with windower, you're an idiot. I shouldn't say it, but there are much, much, much better programs out there, which are not only easier to use and program, but have more control.

Botting with windower is like cutting your lawn with Lego Mindstorm Robots.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

Why the hell did they get rid of the /pol command for PC? That was really useful to be able to alt-tab out of the game look something up and then get back in with minimum fuss. Now I have to log out of the game completely or dig my laptop out. Are they trying to encourage people to use windowers?

/logout does the same thing.

[Liquidedust]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

/logout does the same thing.

/pol took you out to POL client temporarily and allowed alt-tabbing to other applications.

/logout just takes you to character select screen in which alt-tabbing is not allowed and will cause POL to terminate due to screen lost.

[FFVIIMidgar]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I don't understand how anybody can use bots, image rendering, etc. etc. How can you live with things that take away the excitement and unpredictability of the game? I play the game the way it is and the way it was meant to be played. Using bots and programs takes away so much value from the game and just destroys it. I don't know if any of you agree with me but I'm going to stick with the TOS and enjoy the game the way it is.

[Draco Dagon]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I often turn the clipping plane way down in my settings when in places like Valkurm (since it's laggy enough as it is). It's always funny to see tunnels appear before the landmasses that they are tunneling through.

Hopefully when I get my new video card later this week, I won't have to turn the clipping plane down anymore. We'll see.

Yeah, that's always pretty funny if/when it happens.

I hate to use slippery slope arguements, but in this case, I really think that it applies. What started as "I just want to be able to Alt-Tab the game" has turned into (for a lot of folks, but by no means all) "I just want to see my teammates TP" and "I just want to have something else count my shadows/help me find the sweet spot" or "I just want to have something to help with the boredom of magic skilling", etc.

Right now there is a guy developing (or rather who has developed) a very basic copy of Windower. But there are people bulling him about the fact that "no one" wants something so simple. Except that they do. A program that just allowed me to alt-tab with no other functionality (even if it's functionality that I can easily disable) would be fantastic. Even more fantastic would be SE wising up and just implementing it for themselves.

Agreed.

For me, Windower is just about being able to access other programs w/out having to exit the game. As stated, using Windower for cheats is pretty pathetic. It would seem like any good hacker could use better programs (if he even needs a 3rd-party program). FFXI Windower really gives no edge w/out plugins, just allows us to enter other apps.

the G15 (yes I have one) is a sweet keyboard, but it really will NOT help you in ffxi.


The G15's macro system is fairly clumsy (for ffxi at least), and is very hard to program.

That's like it for any firmware-macro system.

[Feba]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I don't understand how anybody can use bots, image rendering, etc. etc.

Uh, so you're saying ffxi should look really shitty? I mean, what do you want, us back in Zelda-land graphics?

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

I don't understand why the TParty plugin is so frowned upon.

I mean, think about it this way, you can see your party members HP and MP, but you can't see non-party members MP. Why? Because your party members MP is IMPORTANT. It tells you if you can pull or if you should wait. It tells you if you should zone or if you can stand and fight. It tells you that the BLM can't magicburst right now, that the WHM is probably going to drop a heavy cure-nuke when they stand up, that the Red Mage is seconds from Convert and you should brace for some wild hate.

But non-party members MP? Nobody cares. It doesn't affect your party.


I not only believe in the TP plugin 100% as an assistant to backline mages and melee alike, but i beleive it should be implimentted as a game function....you can see your party member's TP.

Alliance....nah, don't care about that. Extra info I don't need.



By saying that "It is cheating for a blackmage to be able to magicburst by not looking at the chat log" is like saying it's cheating for a melee to know to hold off on the skillchian for a few moments while the BLM gets the MP to magicburst, because it's cheating to look at their MP.



And if it's cheating to look at their MP, how is it not cheating for the whitemage ot be able to see all 6 party members HP at the same time, so the WHM knows imemdiately who needs how much HP cured and when?

Why isn't the party list just a group of 6 names with NO OTHER INFORMATION?




You can't tell me I don't cheat when I glance down at the little box of six pink and yellow bars and I don't even bother to target other party members, I go straight for the PLD.

[Shanisasha]

Re: Cheating and Stuff

It's kinda sad that most of this could be resolved if they gave PC users the ability to alt+tab. That's all.

Letting us alt+tab would void the "innocent" need for windowers. In turn, downloading any third party software to do anything with the game would be considered a cheat and would have no excuse. It wouldn't be a matter of "I couldn't alt tab and well, this program offers me this on top of alt tab". It'd be "I downloaded this to carry out a specific action against the ToS".

Why is alt tab such an evil thing for SE? Why wont they even try to help PC users in this regard? I play on a PC because I like my PC, not because I want it to play like a PS2. If I wanted a static screen I would have gotten a PS2 version of FFXI. Giving us the ability to alt tab wouldn't hurt them, and it would certainly make the PC community much happier.

Here I wonder: Have people been sending comments to SE urging them to add an alt tab for the PC version? I know I have, but if most people restrict themselves to complaining instead of moving those complaints to SE, it's rather useless. Imagine what would happen if all the PC users send in a comment requesting Alt Tab ability?