Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

In the broadest interpretation that would make the discussion of subjob merits and strategy considerations verboten. Even under the strictest interpretation that would make it wrong for me to say the name of the great tank I had last night.

Have you ever had a bad tank said your opinion?

Have you ever had a bad tank then turned around and told people to "Give them hell?"

Have you contacted others who are parting with him and demanded they disband or you will end their endgame prospects?

One of those actions is within your rights of having an opinion and voicing it. The other two are not.

I bet you could find something I have said that you don't agree with, and I could do the same for things you have said. Do I now have the right to advocate trying to ruin your gaming experience over it, or you to do the same thing to me?

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

I believe it is law that child mollesters have to inform those in the neighborhood.


Morals aside, The List is a collection of facts. If something looks like a dog, sounds like a dog, smells like a dog, and lives in a pack of dogs, it's a dog. That is where the RMT part of the list came from and needs no defending ever. If I want to list names of those who help them out knowingly, where is it wrong? I tell them that I will do it and how to get removed from the list and give them a chance to change their ways. You bring up stealing as a RL comparision, fine, I can run with that. What do people and the police think of someone who buys a gun for someone knowing they will probably use it to commit armed robbery?


And what vigilante action do you people think I commit here? All I do myself is update the list, and do my best to keep scum out of whatever LS I am in. I don't run around making people harass those on the list, I don't tell people where the list is, I don't even talk to those on the list after the initial conversation.

And why is it justified? Simple, because SE does nothing to combat RMT besides banning the banks twice a year.

Double Post Edited:

Have you ever had a bad tank said your opinion?

Have you ever had a bad tank then turned around and told people to "Give them hell?"

Have you contacted others who are parting with him and demanded they disband or you will end their endgame prospects?

One of those actions is within your rights of having an opinion and voicing it. The other two are not.

I bet you could find something I have said that you don't agree with, and I could do the same for things you have said. Do I now have the right to advocate trying to ruin your gaming experience over it, or you to do the same thing to me?

And I only contact those PTing with RMT. You are saying spreading that someone is RMT is equal to saying someone is a crappy tank, which is completely unrealistic.

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

I believe it is law that child mollesters have to inform those in the neighborhood.

I will ask again:

Who enforces that.

Morals aside, The List is a collection of facts. If something looks like a dog, sounds like a dog, smells like a dog, and lives in a pack of dogs, it's a dog. That is where the RMT part of the list came from and needs no defending ever. If I want to list names of those who help them out knowingly, where is it wrong?

Shameless doe-eying again. You didn't make the list to make the list, you made it so people could ACT on the information. Your motives are as much a part of this as your actions.

I tell them that I will do it and how to get removed from the list and give them a chance to change their ways.

Tell them when you initially converse with them. Contact each and everyone and tell them, via auto-translate if necessary, that they are being put on a public list as Gilsellers or whatever else you classify them as. Tell them what web address and tell them that it is very possible they will be MPKed, harrassed or blacklisted as consequence.

You bring up stealing as a RL comparision, fine, I can run with that. What do people and the police think of someone who buys a gun for someone knowing they will probably use it to commit armed robbery?

Probably nothing great.
They don't harrass them though. They don't beat them up. Furthermore, the police arrest the person ONLY upon committing the armed robbery and ONLY with evidence proven in a court of law, a court of law NOT governed by a single individual either, mind you. Furthermore they are provided with legal representation.

And why is it justified? Simple, because SE does nothing to combat RMT besides banning the banks twice a year

So you regularly take action when the police don't in real life too?

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

I will ask again:

Who enforces that.

I believe law enforcement of some kind does, don't know what that has to do with anything.

Shameless doe-eying again. You didn't make the list to make the list, you made it so people could ACT on the information. Your motives are as much a part of this as your actions.



Tell them when you initially converse with them. Contact each and everyone and tell them, via auto-translate if necessary, that they are being put on a public list as Gilsellers or whatever else you classify them as. Tell them what web address and tell them that it is very possible they will be MPKed, harrassed or blacklisted as consequence.

Yes, I did make this list so people who believe as I do can use it. And I do inform them, if you would bother to do any research or read something besides this. Hell, the last post in the original thread has a screenshot of me doing it.




And for everything else, you brought up the RL crap not me. I do nothing besides list them. If keeping a list of people who do something is wrong, then call me guilty. Here in the real world, people can sit and watch for people running traffic lights and note their license plates if they want, it is called free speech.

I at no point try to make anyone do as I do regarding this list. You on the other hand are trying to make everyone believe as you do and belittling them in the process, which is what you say I am doing.

And yeah, if I see someone running out of a store stealing something, I'd trip them up or something, which is what this equates to, stopping a minor crime. The better way to combat the minor crime is for people not to commit the crime in the first place.

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Doesn't suprise me that Feba started this crap again, he was a troll on Alla, and he's doing it here as well. I wish I could /blist him here so I don't have to see the same old crap he spews all the time.

I use this list so I don't assist any RMT in anyway within my power. That means no raises, no tele's, no PT's, NOTHING.

I guess you could say, I'm the guy (among many) who enforces this list via exclusion. I don't harass anyone, I don't hack them, I don't rip them off - I just avoid them.

It's only non-Seraph people have a problem with this (mostly Feba's rabid obsession). The rest of us on the server know EXACTLY the crap these RMT's do, who they are, and have no stomach for helping them in anyway.

The List is here to stay, why can't you just get over it and stay out of Seraph's Forums?

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

I believe law enforcement of some kind does, don't know what that has to do with anything.

The fact that you don't see the relevance indicates the issue. Somehow you don't distinguish what

Yes, I did make this list so people who believe as I do can use it. And I do inform them, if you would bother to do any research or read something besides this. Hell, the last post in the original thread has a screenshot of me doing it.

Then I apologize. Looking at your original thread (with the List) I did not catch this particular clause.

Here in the real world, people can sit and watch for people running traffic lights and note their license plates if they want, it is called free speech.

So they can report them to the proper authorities.

You on the other hand are trying to make everyone believe as you do and belittling them in the process, which is what you say I am doing.

I have belittled nothing except for your arguments.

Furthermore, at this point I believe nothing except that you should buckle up and be ready to address moral concerns. You'll notice I have yet to argue that the list is actually immoral.

And yeah, if I see someone running out of a store stealing something, I'd trip them up or something, which is what this equates to, stopping a minor crime. The better way to combat the minor crime is for people not to commit the crime in the first place.

Tripping isn't illegal, MPKing is (by the ToS)

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

MPKing is also a unicorn unless you are in sky anymore.


And I have stated my moral standing on this already, so what moral arguement is there for me to argue on? People who help RMT are scum and should be known as such. I don't see an arguement there unless you advocate helping RMT to further your own levling and damning endgame in the process.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

There is an ignore function on these forums. If you don't want to see someone's posts, then you can ignore them and problem solved!

EDIT: This was in reply to Danicus's post saying he wished there was a blacklist function on the forums.

[Tatha-Kitten]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

why is this still goin on?

It's pretty clear to me that he didn't make the list to be JUST a list, if he did, he wouldn't have posted it here, it would be for personal use only. Secondly, he uses people using RMT for personal exp as areason for getting on the list.

erm... isn't that what we do to NORMAL players aswell? use them for personal exp gain? hell, you sit there for hours waiting for someone to invite you to a party just to get exp, you don't care who it is as long as the gain is there, and most people bitch and/or leave a party that doesn't have the desired gain.

Where is the proof of the people who have partied with RMT outside of a time and date that could easily be falsified.

heck, i'll label myself one shall i?

Name: Tatha. seller name: irtehgilsellerlols. time and date: 15th july 2006 12:06 GMT.

i haven't been playing for over 2 weeks now, but according to the information i just gave, yesterday i partied with a gil seller. and since it says it right there, it MUST be true. /sarcasm off.

i don't think anyone has a problem of a list of gil sellers, that isn't the problem at all. The problem is the intent that caused this list to be made HERE, and the language used giving permission to MPK and generally harass these people, regardless of them being a seller, or someoen who spend 30 minutes getting exp and then leaving because it wasn't all that great.

You can't count these people in the same league. So they should not be in the same listing.

you keep screaming about the oodles of proof about these people, i've looked at your list, most of them have no screenshots attached and that in my mind makes the whole thing unreliable. the fact that you cannot provide the proof you claim to have.

I think that is what Feba wants also. He wants your 'concrete' evidence.

Post it here, end this trife and utter bullshit right now. Your failure to do so so far has only proven to cause more trouble for you.

but i digress, honestly, who CARES if someone partied with a gilseller, who gives a fuck about the date and time? (pardon my language but it was necessary for impact of tyhe sentence. mods can alter and i will give no hassle.)
Your list, however you intended it, has a negetive impact, and it IS a vigilante action, the police do not release lists of known criminals, they keep it archived so SANCTIONED law enforcers can act upon it in a way that is APPROVED by the GOVERNMENT. notice that you are not sanctioned by square enix to write a list of RMT's, nor are you approved to release that information to the people in order to incite hatred toward them.

Which, was your intent, you want people to hate the names on that list. don't try to say otherwise, if you do, your list has no point, and should be removed right away.

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

The List is here to stay, why can't you just get over it and stay out of Seraph's Forums?

This is "General FF XI Discussion".

I haven't touched your forums (except perhaps to read The List post)

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Are you on Seraph, do you know our RMT? No, so then you cannot comment on that part of the list. And since the move here there has been proof for all added to the PTs with RMT part. The proof is there, if you continue to ignore it, good for you, you are making yourself look foolish.

And if your morals allow you to PT wtih RMT to get exp, you should not have a problem with people knowing you do. If you do something in RL, you should not have a problem with people knowing about it, it is called responsibility for your own actions.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

It's only non-Seraph people have a problem with this (mostly Feba's rabid obsession).

DagneyD

Elured

Atleast two people on that thread from Seraph who object

(One who wants the entire thing removed, the other who wants the pts with gilseller removed, and feels its unethical)

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

And they want removed for moral reasons, not because they have been wronged.

[Tatha-Kitten]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Are you on Seraph, do you know our RMT? No, so then you cannot comment on that part of the list. And since the move here there has been proof for all added to the PTs with RMT part. The proof is there, if you continue to ignore it, good for you, you are making yourself look foolish.

And if your morals allow you to PT wtih RMT to get exp, you should not have a problem with people knowing you do. If you do something in RL, you should not have a problem with people knowing about it, it is called responsibility for your own actions.

when did i ask you to bitch in my post? i didn't.

i did however ask you to post your proof, the ones that have no attached screenshots should either have the screenshots added, or be removed from the list. Should you gain evidence at a later time, you can put them back on and no-one will have a problem with that.

and again, i state you are NOT a GM. so you are NOT a SANCTIONED law enforcer of FFXI, and therefore you list should not have been made in the first place. police databases are not public domain, the GMs do mroe work to better the community than your list does, for a start, they made it so people like you couldn't mpk and ruin innocent people's playing life.

this i do admit, also stops you harrassing and MPKing rmt's, but you're pretty inventive, you couldn't hit them directly anymore, so you made a list. bravo, such a mature person you are. you lost your way of attacking them and made another one.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

The whole point most people still seem to be making is that I am irreparably harming innocents. This idea is completely ficticious and if keeping a list of names is wrong, all crafting registries or server LS lists should be removed from this forum as well. If we regulate one type of free speech, where does it end? I provide proof as asked by admins of wherever the list is at the time. If you have a problem with that, take it up with them, have them ask me for more proof.

Double Post Edited:
To Tatha:

When your name is PiNG, I will post the proof you want. Until then, I am doing as the admins of this site ask.



Oh, and this list was around long before the BST-Nerf, hurray for one more person not doing any research and making assumptions about things they know nothing about.