Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Tell me what I have to back up, and I will..

Oh.... so I have to back up YOUR list and not anything of my own? Thanks for reinforcing the fact that the main argument for the list is flinging random things at anyone who disagrees with it.

I believe that sound was anyone caring what you say going out the door. I have proof posted. You can gather proof to the contrary easily, yet refuse to do so, even after :

Tell me what I have to back up, and I will..

You just like to argue morals and what ifs Feba. And I for one am not going to argue the same points with you over and over again as we are on the 4th go around this time. You have made no new points. You have refused to budge and been yelled at by admins for various reasons. I have made changes for the masses and yet you, the one who says I am the one that refused to do anything for proof and such, you have done nothing to discredit me.

You asked what you wanted me to have you back up, I said a name from the RMT list. You quickly withdrew and argued. You are nothing but a forum flamer who likes to argue any and everything.

Until you do something new, I am not responding to you. The rest of you can post and I will respond, but I am done with Feba until he makes a new point.

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

If he enforces anything it's only through the support of the people on Seraph. That was my point. No one is made to do anything.

Agreed.

No one is made to do anything. Only the people can enforce the policy, sure.

Here's the issue: Just because the people do something does not make it a just action, even in the case of government. Just because The players of Seraph choose to follow the list does not make it a legitimate decision.

Furthermore, if the list DOES have innocents or does not provide proper and sufficient evidence for its accusations it is essentially falsifying information to the people of Seraph. Justice is supposed to be blind, but not that sort of blind. Those people then choose to act, justly or not.

So that brings us back to the root question: How reliable is 'the list'. If it is unjust and unreliable then it is not justified, whether the people of Seraph choose to think so or not, thus making vigilante action unjustified.

You just like to argue morals and what ifs Feba.

Hypotheticals and morals can be essential to arguing points of principle, and principle as much as practice is an issue here.

Ignoring that means that you are beating a cowardly retreat. You know that chances are no one will go through your entire list and check each and every person out.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Agreed.

No one is made to do anything. Only the people can enforce the policy, sure.

Here's the issue: Just because the people do something does not make it a just action, even in the case of government. Just because The players of Seraph choose to follow the list does not make it a legitimate decision.

Furthermore, if the list DOES have innocents or does not provide proper and sufficient evidence for its accusations it is essentially falsifying information to the people of Seraph. Justice is supposed to be blind, but not that sort of blind. Those people then choose to act, justly or not.

So that brings us back to the root question: How reliable is 'the list'. If it is unjust and unreliable then it is not justified, whether the people of Seraph choose to think so or not, thus making vigilante action unjustified.

How reliable is it? There have been 4 names taken off the RMT list in about a year and a half, or however long it has been. There have been no complaints from anyone on Seraph about the names on the RMT list besides that 1 instance. I think 1 error in a year+ is good service.

How reliable is the PTs with sellers? I personally stand by all names from allakhazam and the times/dates given there. And going with the wishes of this site, those who were added after the move here have screenshots, and are 100% accurate.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

What is he forcing them to do exactly? He has no power to make them disband or stop whatever activity to follow the list, nor does he have any power to make others act on the list to give those on it anything to submit to. Anyone who does either is acting solely of their on volition, thus nothing is actually enforced.

RD's relationship or lack thereof is a moot point. If SE disapproves of his actions or the actions of those who might follow him they will act to stop him. I don't see the point of the arguement other than possibly that you took my comparision to justice systems too far. I wasn't meaning to say that RD's actions are as good as being official. You drew a line between legislated justice institutions and vigiantism based on authority, while I pointed out that in both cases power and authority come only from the consent of supporting constituents.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Hypotheticals and morals can be essential to arguing points of principle, and principle as much as practice is an issue here.

Ignoring that means that you are beating a cowardly retreat. You know that chances are no one will go through your entire list and check each and every person out.

I am offended by this. I have given proof over and over again. Feba has done nothing but argue his ideas and do nothing to back them up. I have given WPs to people who wanted to check things. I personally stand by EVERY name on the RMT list. I have my proof, my proof is seeing them at NM camps over and over again. If you cannot take my word and the word of those who posted in the original thread here and on allakhazam, go get your own proof against me. 10 people saying they see someone rob a bank is good enough to get someone convicted, why is everyone saying these are RMT any different.

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

How reliable is it? There have been 4 names taken off the RMT list in about a year and a half, or however long it has been. There have been no complaints from anyone on Seraph about the names on the RMT list besides that 1 instance. I think 1 error in a year+ is good service.

How reliable is the PTs with sellers? I personally stand by all names from allakhazam and the times/dates given there. And going with the wishes of this site, those who were added after the move here have screenshots, and are 100% accurate.

And how many of those people have seen the list? Can you guaruntee them a voice?

Not with this system. You have no possible way of knowing how much of that was because people didn't know they were on the list and we have no way of knowing how many pleas you might have ignored. The workings of accusation are still far too centralized, and appeals aren't checked by anything except your own decisions.

If you cannot take my word and the word of those who posted in the original thread here and on allakhazam, go get your own proof against me.

But if your system is inherently flawed morally then whether they are RMT or not is not at all relevant. You still have to answer to whether or not this vigilante justice is in fact justice at all.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Agreed.

No one is made to do anything. Only the people can enforce the policy, sure.

Here's the issue: Just because the people do something does not make it a just action, even in the case of government. Just because The players of Seraph choose to follow the list does not make it a legitimate decision.

Furthermore, if the list DOES have innocents or does not provide proper and sufficient evidence for its accusations it is essentially falsifying information to the people of Seraph. Justice is supposed to be blind, but not that sort of blind. Those people then choose to act, justly or not.

So that brings us back to the root question: How reliable is 'the list'. If it is unjust and unreliable then it is not justified, whether the people of Seraph choose to think so or not, thus making vigilante action unjustified.

I think the root question as far as this thread is concerned is whether the thread The List deserves to exist if its accuracy isn't perfect. I don't think it is right to disqualify its validity based on being imperfect. Perfection is too much to be asked for.

I do agree that its power and justice are based on its reliability, however I think the only people that are qualified to determine how reliable it is are those familiar with the people in question, that is the people of Seraph.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

So if you are right, I am an evil bastard ringleadering the greatest FFXI consiracy ever.

And morally flawed? You are saying that listing those who PT and aid RMT is morally flawed? Maybe in your head, but I see a very fine line between RMT and those who help them. The line is so small, I consider them on the same level of scum. So where is the moral flaw? You think helping RMT level, or using them to level is right and acceptable? That is the only thing I can come up with to back up your morally flawwed comment.

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

I think the root question as far as this thread is concerned is whether the thread The List deserves to exist if its accuracy isn't perfect. I don't think it is right to disqualify its validity based on being imperfect.

It didn't deserve to exist because passing any judgment intended to influence the actions of others is beyond any players purview.

If SE disapproves of his actions or the actions of those who might follow him they will act to stop him

Then report him to a GM, or get in contact with a GM and see what happens when SE is made aware of what he is doing.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

It didn't deserve to exist because passing any judgment intended to influence the actions of others is beyond any players purview.

In the broadest interpretation that would make the discussion of subjob merits and strategy considerations verboten. Even under the strictest interpretation that would make it wrong for me to say the name of the great tank I had last night. Is it only right to speak what I believe to be the truth if it benefits the people involved?

As to the calling a GM thing, that's perfectly within anyone's rights or abilities.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

So someone cannot post a good players thread, or scammers thread either, by your reasoning. Heck, by that reasoning, these whole forums should be shut down. You are forming opinions about people by what they post, so how is that any different than forming opinions based on actions people took in the past.

And calling SE, might as well remove and linkshell websites or crafter lists or game guides too. They might bad mouth someone.



People, welcome to the real world, not everyone is nice, and yes, we have free speech. As soon as you get over your political correctness and moral high ground, we can get down to business with actual proof. I have provided proof for the list, no one has done so against.

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

As soon as you get over your political correctness and moral high ground, we can get down to business with actual proof.

Getting down from the moral high ground might not be necessary, thus avoiding ever needing proof.

This is obviously something you wish to avoid, exemplified by your uncalled for distaste for any sort of moral discussion.

So if you are right, I am an evil bastard ringleadering the greatest FFXI consiracy ever.

There is no reason to hyperbolize what I've said into that sort of an accusation.

And morally flawed? You are saying that listing those who PT and aid RMT is morally flawed?

To use your own words, welcome to the real world.
Your actions will have consequences. You intend for the list to be used, so don't resort to nonsense doe-eye arguments like this, where all you're doing is making a list. You are attemtping to influence people otherwise you would have no reason to compile such a list.

So where is the moral flaw? You think helping RMT level, or using them to level is right and acceptable?

If someone murdered, would it be in your place to form a lynch mob and kill him?

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

So someone cannot post a good players thread, or scammers thread either, by your reasoning. Heck, by that reasoning, these whole forums should be shut down. You are forming opinions about people by what they post, so how is that any different than forming opinions based on actions people took in the past.

Personal opinions are your right.

This however:
The Pantheon of Scum (give 'em hell boys)
People who party with gil sellers, and refuse to disband once knowing their members are sellers, or just plain don't care if they party with sellers or not.

Is not a personal opinion.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Depends on situation.


And when child mollesters have to let people know they are in the neighborhood, do you have a problem with that?


Yes, I intend the list to be used and wish everyone did. And to use my own arguement you tried to turn against me. This is the real world, people argue all the time. And there is such a thing as free speech and libel. The people wronged on my list can come to talk to me if they want to pursue a libel charge against me. Otherwise, this is free speech, and I am obeying the rules by the admins here, and have not had an ounce of evidence discrediting me posted yet. The List functions as it says it does, go read the OP again if you cannot understand that.


And in regards to a moral discussion. My morals are on record as such: RMT are scum. Those who knowingly PT with them for personal exp gain are a ladder rung below. Those who PT with them for NM drops and gil are a rung above the RMT themselves. I do not regard any of the 3 groups as legitimate players and will blackball them in endgame or any game event to the best of my ability.

Double Post Edited:
The Pantheon of Scum are the ones who split gil drops on sky gods and other NMs with sellers and helped them learn sky.

And I cannot state facts? It is wrong to state the names of people helping RMT? Guess it is wrong for newspapers to publish names about anything, hurray for censorship.

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Depends on situation.


And when child mollesters have to let people know they are in the neighborhood, do you have a problem with that?

Who enforces that?
Does the enforcer encourage people to beat up the molester too?

This is the real world, people argue all the time.

Great.

This makes your list moral how? All you have stated is these things happen in the real world.
Related to the discussion that's completely irrelevant. People also steal in the real world. You wouldn't justify stealing in game based on that, now would you?

And in regards to a moral discussion. My morals are on record as such: RMT are scum. Those who knowingly PT with them for personal exp gain are a ladder rung below. Those who PT with them for NM drops and gil are a rung above the RMT themselves. I do not regard any of the 3 groups as legitimate players and will blackball them in endgame or any game event to the best of my ability.

You fail to justify vigilante action on moral grounds there. That is the hole I see and unless you can come up with a reason as to why vigilante action is justified, it will remain.