Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

[Feba]

Pt1 (locked) here: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...nces.list.html

Added the spoiler, and decided I am not going to bother contacting all the PTs with sellers people. I have changed the old sig I had on allak to direct people here, and had 2 JPs on the list from a misunderstanding that were removed this week. So if people whose native language is not english can contact me and take care of stuff with the current way I handle things, I do not see a problem.

As posted by RD on page 9 of The List.


I would be content to keep it to PMs, but since it seems no one cares to respond to those, there's not much of a choice but to bring public opinion back into it.

He has NOT kept his end of the already slim bargain up, in making sure that no innocents were placed on the list. The fact that they were removed is not a sign that the list works, it's a sign that they shouldn't have been there in the first place. He's condemning people based on his own beliefs and not any proof.

How did they find out? They're japanese, if they were put on it mistakingly they wouldn't have found out unless a friend told them, or the very unlikely circumstance they're reading an NA ffxi forum.

What would've happened if they hadn't found out? if the list was working as intended, they would've been locked out of the community, if the list is a waste of space, it's just causing flamewars and wasting time and bandwidth here.

This is very disturbing, what if you had been placed on a list "By Mistake", and people started MPKing you and blacklisting you for it? Even if just for a month. And do you think you can make up that damage by a small note on the nth page of a thread saying "whoops"? That's not gonna make people take you off their blist, especially since the names weren't even listed. Not even an apology was given.

[Mog]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

ok, here's my two-cents on the issue.

Nobody should accuse anybody based on the fact that they heard somebody is selling gil. That's hear-say. What you do need is concrete evidence: a picture, a chat log, anything, that proves that the said person is guilty of real money trading. However, while it's true that you shouldn't add someone to the list if one person said it, if there's more than one person who can second the opinion, I believe that it's rightful to put the said person on the list.

If there are random people in "The List" thread saying: "Add this guy, he was doing something fishy" or "Add this guy, he was camping a NM a lot", they shouldn't be added to the list. That alone does not constiute a fair argument.

I personally don't know even half the people who have been added to the list of gilsellers. However, I joined the game about 9 months ago, so I'm not even sure if what he's saying is true. Maybe half of the people on the list are innocent. Who knows? Runningdemon doesn't seem to have concrete evidence on who and who not is a gilseller (except for Zuzupetals, which I agree with), so even I am skeptical on who sells gil or not. Unless people present me with concrete evidence, I won't believe them unless it's a general consensus that somebody sells gil.

By the way, this thread will get closed soon, so talk as much as you want before it happens.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

And obviously, if an innocent was placed on the list, the evidence was either falsified, or wasn't very solid to begin with.

[Mog]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

And obviously, if an innocent was placed on the list, the evidence was either falsified, or wasn't very solid to begin with.

Yes, I agree. The more innocent people that they discover, the less solid the entire list is.

That's a lot of people on the list, and other than the Zuzupetal link, I don't know what to make of the rest of the people on the list.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

The reason 2 said JPs were added was because as since I have been soloing THF in Qufim lately, it appears some RMTs just sit out and cure people for some reason. That is what the person reporting them said was happening, he thought it was a PL.

And I removed them once the problem was discoved. My checks and balances work. If you think there are any wrong names on list, you can PM me for a WP and go look for yourself.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Feba, just be glad that the innocents weren't English, and were probably only minimally affected by RD's pranking.

It probably did reaffirm a few stereotypes and has probably zoomed around every JP forum about it...

'RD falsely accuses people of being JP! I mean RMT!!!"

A lot said the list had problems, and the attitude of come and speak to me, and we'll resolve it, it arrogant BS. It's his list and *HIS* owness to be right.

Glad to see it though. ^^

[Feba]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

My checks and balances work

Then how did they get on the list in the first place?


Even if they were taken off, that does not excuse you from PUTTING INNOCENTS ON THE LIST in the first place.


Not to mention you didn't even list their names so people could take them off their personal blists, which means they could still very well be hurt by the list.

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

So what are the consequences of being on this list? MPK? /blist? Libel?

This will probably be closed soon, but I think that it's important, as a community issue, for it to be discussed by the community. Orchestrating that via PMs would be difficult.

If this doesn't devolve into a flame war, maybe we could hold a discussion for a reasonable period of time (although I have a suspicion no one will be budging).

Could you disclose your system of checks and balances? What is your routine when dealing with this list? What is acceptable evidence for placing people on it?

If anything we need to know exactly how the policy works to discuss it.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Originally it was "Feel free to MPK them and make their lives hell", although RD removed it, that's still the point.



It also has the fun penalty for NOT using it in the form of the PT with (people RD says are) gilsellers list.

Double Post Edited:
Oh, people assisting gilsellers still have a comment saying "give 'em hell".

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

MPK, Blacklist, and being added to anyone who's stupid enough to believe it's lists of do not invite to endgame community.

Hence why I said it's probably a good thing they weren't NA.

It's not even like they've had an apology for being falsely accused of being RMT or their aides.

There's a huge difference between healing random people and teaching RMT how to access Sky/Sea/etc... but in RD's list... there isn't.

I wonder how many people are on the list who shouldn't have been there in the first place.

p.s.

The checks and balances would be working when innocent people weren't added to the list. Any cries of McArthy so far have been utterly founded and you've now lost much credibility by your attitude.

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

So what are the consequences of being on this list? MPK? /blist? Libel?

You're labeled a gilseller or someone who assists gilsellers.

sit out and cure people for some reason. That is what the person reporting them said was happening, he thought it was a PL.

Thank god you're taking a stand against kindness, or are PL's against your rules?

[Shopee]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

THE CHECK AND BALANCES WOULD BE WORKING... IF THEY WEREN'T PUT ON THE LIST IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU DUMB MCARTHY.

I know I'm not a mod, but please, if you want to be able to discuss this, let's not resort to insults like that. I understand you probably feel strongly, and I understand why you do, but there is no point getting worked up.

If you really feel the need to get it out, do it via PM or something.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

McCarthy is a fitting term here, as is dumb, but you shouldn't include the dumb part, if we want this thread to live.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Amended...

However - doesn't change the fact that RD is an FFXI McArthy. He got it wrong, and his attitude instead of being one of showing apology to the people who were MISTAKENLY added to the list of harassment, one that displayed contempt for non english speakers.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances With The List - Pt.2 (Condemning Innocents)

Regarding the issue of mistakes, no system of evidence is perfect. Obviously punishing innocent people should be avoided, but if one or two innocent people bearing undue suffering were enough to throw the entire method out, no country in the world would have a justice system. If the margin of error was disturbingly high then something would bear examining, but in this case it was only two people whose situations were quickly rectified.

There is no requirement that no innocent people be placed on the list, in fact it was pretty much assumed that mistakes would happen. It was only requested that evidence be kept on hand for new additions and for disputes regarding specific objections to be handled with the person in question. Here is the original "bargain" PM for reference:

Ok, but I have one request for you, Please, PLEASE be sure you get hard evidence of the people on list and keep them filed, or post screen shots. (New additions or edits) One thing that worries me is the problem when we assume, (I'm sure you'll assume), that if someone, ACCIDENTALLY joins a party who are full of gil sellers, but the person didn't know any better about them. Probably thought they were just regular party or find out that they were actually partied with gil sellers after the party is over...

Most likely there will be such people, and get listed in your list. If someone clearly comes in to our forums and state their facts please be sure to talk it over with them in civil manner.

Perhaps come up with a disclaimer note and ask for users to PM you about false information that might be in the list. Pretty much keep things handled as best as you can.

That's all I ask of you for that list. I'll go ahead and unlock it first thing in the morning. Please do your best to keep the thread as civil as possible. If things do get out of hand, It'll be closed and moved to our archive.

As for the forum request, it will be done. Your contributions are welcome. And I truly appreciate your helping. It's just that controversial subjects tend to get a lot more attention and careful moderation on this forum.

Thanks

-PiNG

As for the thread being a waste of space or bandwidth or whatnot, that point is rather moot. If we were interested in policing value at that level, the entire General Topics and Extra Activities sections would likely not exist.