Pl's. Good or Bad?

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

QFT

To the naysayers that say PL is bad period. You're all in denial since you couldn't get a PL to your party even if you wanted to. Maybe bitter about the fortunes of other players? Don't come in with a false sense of holier-than-thou attitude, because, by god, you're not Jesus.

As the majority have already spoken, PLs are both good and bad. It's up to each individual player to determine what instance this can be applied to. Some people believe that the money they spent to play this game was meant to play this game as a challenge. Fine, your entitled to your opinions. That, however, does not make it a fact. Other players believe they should get every single penny's worth out of their fee and thus would rather have a PL along on their exp jaunt.

However, to solely blame PL for the number of bad players on any one server is a copout bullshit. Why? Because that's too easy to just lay the blame on any one thing. As Icemage has pointed out time and again in this thread, there will always be good players and bad players.

I naysay power levels. I'm bitter and jelous because I can't find one? I can say you're bitter and jelous because I don't -need- one and you do. Its all just mud slinging so GTF off your cheap shots and understand this:

I play the game to have fun. To excel at my hobby. I wanna be the Avesta of White Mages because I think its FUN - even if it is something that may never be a realistic goal. When someone else does all the work for me, and all I do is sit there and beat stuff with a stick, that's not fun. I like the challenge, the excitement, the risk of loosing my hard work, bitching about it when I do loose my hardwork and die, and then the sense of victory when I finally over come it because of my skills, and the skills of those people I choose to play with.

I take -pride- in the fact that I can solo things most whm don't care to try, and I take pride in the fact that I can play this game on my own merits, and not because som guye with a 200ft e-peen can PL me.

/rant

[Aeni]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

I naysay power levels. I'm bitter and jelous because I can't find one? I can say you're bitter and jelous because I don't -need- one and you do. Its all just mud slinging so GTF off your cheap shots and understand this:

I play the game to have fun. To excel at my hobby. I wanna be the Avesta of White Mages because I think its FUN - even if it is something that may never be a realistic goal. When someone else does all the work for me, and all I do is sit there and beat stuff with a stick, that's not fun. I like the challenge, the excitement, the risk of loosing my hard work, bitching about it when I do loose my hardwork and die, and then the sense of victory when I finally over come it because of my skills, and the skills of those people I choose to play with.

I take -pride- in the fact that I can solo things most whm don't care to try, and I take pride in the fact that I can play this game on my own merits, and not because som guye with a 200ft e-peen can PL me.

/rant

And you're entitled to your opinion. This does not make it any better than anyone else. What you might think is an ethical stance might just be some banter from a raving lunatic to another player.

Also, why would you need a PL as a 75 WHM? You're talking oranges when the topic is about apples. I'm sure you never had access to noble's tunic and hexastrike at level 10. I fail to see how those things and soloing stuff make you a better WHM in Valkurm. Seriously, I don't.

Double Post Edited:

Because good players, don't need a powerlevel.

There's also intelligent players and stupid ones. These run the gamut within the bad and good players group.

[Murphie]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

Who is saying anything about ethics? You're the one that is dragging that into the conversation. But maybe we don't get it because we're just jealous?

Yes, we're all entitled to our opinion, no one is debating that issue here.

edit: I'd love to see how many of the stupid players fall on the "good player" end of the spectrum, Aeni. Seriously. That would be quite a sight to see.

[Aeni]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

edit: I'd love to see how many of the stupid players fall on the "good player" end of the spectrum, Aeni. Seriously. That would be quite a sight to see.

Let's take an example. There are several rank 10 players who've played this game from Beta. They can solo BCs with their SMN jobs and can just about play any job to perfection.

They decide to PL through the lower levels as to not have to deal with the "nubs" that are also LFP.

You said, and I quote:

Because good players, don't need a powerlevel.

In your almost elitist view, less than "good players" use PL. What does that say about the players in the above example?

[Murphie]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

No, in my view good players don't need a powerlevel. I was pretty clear, or so I thought.

If they choose to use one, that's another story altogether. But they don't need it.

I don't see any reason to PL through the lower levels. If people are so awesome (and I have no doubt that some folks are) then don't go to frigging Valkurm Dunes and drag a PL along. As I've said several times, a group of folks who know what they are doing can start kicking ass and taking names as early as level 10. They can kill so fast they don't need someone standing by their side holding their hands.

That's the way I like to play. I don't expect anyone else to play the same way, but I also don't give people that are powerleveled (for whatever reason) nearly as much respect as I do those that don't. That's my right as an individual, and it has nothing to do with jealousy.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

And you're entitled to your opinion. This does not make it any better than anyone else. What you might think is an ethical stance might just be some banter from a raving lunatic to another player.

Also, why would you need a PL as a 75 WHM? You're talking oranges when the topic is about apples. I'm sure you never had access to noble's tunic and hexastrike at level 10. I fail to see how those things and soloing stuff make you a better WHM in Valkurm. Seriously, I don't.

Double Post Edited:


There's also intelligent players and stupid ones. These run the gamut within the bad and good players group.

In valkrum, I had access to the same thing every other whm had. You're right. And I did it without a PL. I kept my parties alive, and I didn't have mommy, daddy, or best friend holding my hand.

Of course i'm entitled to my opinion. I take issue with you talking to us (those who don't like PL at all) in an insulting manner. That's not opinion, thats out of the realm of opinion, and into the realm of attacking. Hense my comment about mud silinging and telling you you to cut out the cheap shots.

As for being level 75. Yeah. I'm at end game. I don't have a PL now. I don't need one. I didn't have one then, I didn't need one then.

The point, then, is that jelousy has -nothing- to do with it, and it has everything to do with the fact that it doesn't matter what level I am, I still take pride in not needing, and not using power levels, and I think - I am of the opinion - (is that better?) that it made me a better whm then, and it makes me a better whm now.

One thing I guess we might agree on is "why would you need one at 75" cause that I don't understand. Yet as I'm writing this someone in me LS is telling about this a party in C.Mire getting PL'd....

PL for "hard spots" aside... that's fucked up...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

I must confessed we used a PL last night. ._. And, couldn't have survived w/out him.

Our little static group was SAM, RDM, and BRD, Lv.35-36. We found no PLD, no NIN, no WHM, and no SMN. We picked up a THF, and found a newbie WAR/MNK, and we knew we don't have enough mages to keep the WAR alive if he tanks. Searched as we might, we still couldn't find a tank or another mage, and the newbie WAR/MNK was just too shaky to trust tanking to.

But, the THF had a PL (WHM75, Tarutaru w/V-clock), and off we went as a 5/6 party. We tried to find somebody to fill up the 6th slot, but closest compatible person was a COR LFG 40min later, and we ended up deciding against it. We didn't even find DD's seeking. (My hours are terrible, and my static group suffers for it.)

So, we horribly wronged the newbie WAR? Well, maybe, mabye not.

We taught him how to work with SATA, and he ended up tanking half time, and learned to deal with the SAM's crazy TP gains and having 2 SC's flying in the party. We joked around, had fun, and handled our own links. (BRD + RDM sleeping mobs--the PL never had a chance.) If he had level appropriate tank food, I would have also taught him my way of tanking on WAR/MNK, but he was mostly munching on meat jerkies while fighting IT+ mobs. ^_^; (WAR/MNK is really much better tank on IT- to VT.)

Would he have learned more without the PL? Probably. Or, the party could've been less tolerant of him (one of my static member was complaining to me he was a noob, until I started to teach him SATA), and end the party sooner.

However, since PL were present, the party was kinda patient, and I could take 10 min to fine tune his game to work with THF (the THF had given up earlier), and the SAM and THF can spend another 20 min to get him used to two SC's flying around while he tries to line up correctly with a PL around.

PL really has to be judged on case by case basis. I spent my night casting Regen w/out having to spam cure's (spammed enfeebs instead), and won grudging praise from my static member for turning the newbie "bad WAR" into a "good player." XD

[little ninja]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

No, in my view good players don't need a powerlevel. I was pretty clear, or so I thought.

If they choose to use one, that's another story altogether. But they don't need it.

I don't see any reason to PL through the lower levels. If people are so awesome (and I have no doubt that some folks are) then don't go to frigging Valkurm Dunes and drag a PL along. As I've said several times, a group of folks who know what they are doing can start kicking ass and taking names as early as level 10. They can kill so fast they don't need someone standing by their side holding their hands.

That's the way I like to play. I don't expect anyone else to play the same way, but I also don't give people that are powerleveled (for whatever reason) nearly as much respect as I do those that don't. That's my right as an individual, and it has nothing to do with jealousy.

i dunno but isnt posting in 1 section that you play this game for a challange, then post a little later stating you had a 70+ friend helping you whats called an oxymoron?

its funny we fight over power leveling hurting an helping a pt. but have any of you ever considered our uberness screws those noobs over big time? last week i got one of my mules to 25, a war in fact, do you know how many times he tanked in parties. 0 times. now im in the jungles an a few parties expected me to tank, now this is no big deal for me seeing as im a 75 nin, an a 60+war. but just imagine what it must be like for a young war, whos had the benifets of endgame players bringing up 2 or 3 lvl 75 job. thats where the first big problem is.

Sounds more like an issue with bad players into the higher lvls then the fact of the PL. so heres the solution, STOP INVITING THEM TO YOUR PARTIES!! Seriously. they rely on players like you an myself with endgame knowledge to hold there hands as far as we can take them. i say the heck with them. let them sit afk for hours on end cause i refuse to party with anyone without a subjob, or with some horrid low lvl rank. hey if i can take the time to get 10. they should take the time to get 7 or 8.

JPN can wait 2 hours for a certain job with a certain rank. maybe we should start that as well. then maybe we wont have horrid players into the late 30's.

[Murphie]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

i dunno but isnt posting in 1 section that you play this game for a challange, then post a little later stating you had a 70+ friend helping you whats called an oxymoron?

No, it's not an oxymoron. I had some help with Genkei 1 from a 70+ friend because it's almost impossible to get a party of level 50s to do that with anymore. So my choices were do it that way or not at all. If something is soloable by me, I solo it. If it's not, I find some folks to do it with. That's how the game works. But I don't go above and beyond and have someone babysit me on something that I can do myself.

its funny we fight over power leveling hurting an helping a pt. but have any of you ever considered our uberness screws those noobs over big time? last week i got one of my mules to 25, a war in fact, do you know how many times he tanked in parties. 0 times. now im in the jungles an a few parties expected me to tank, now this is no big deal for me seeing as im a 75 nin, an a 60+war. but just imagine what it must be like for a young war, whos had the benifets of endgame players bringing up 2 or 3 lvl 75 job. thats where the first big problem is.

Sounds more like an issue with bad players into the higher lvls then the fact of the PL. so heres the solution, STOP INVITING THEM TO YOUR PARTIES!! Seriously. they rely on players like you an myself with endgame knowledge to hold there hands as far as we can take them. i say the heck with them. let them sit afk for hours on end cause i refuse to party with anyone without a subjob, or with some horrid low lvl rank. hey if i can take the time to get 10. they should take the time to get 7 or 8.

JPN can wait 2 hours for a certain job with a certain rank. maybe we should start that as well. then maybe we wont have horrid players into the late 30's.

This last section makes absolutely no sense. Why fault people for being low in rank when they are low in level? They can't just waltz through to Rank 7 or 8 until they have jobs in the 60s. I don't see any reason to punish them for not having a few jobs that high already.

If you only want to play with experienced players, that's certainly your perogative (I've seen more than my fair share of [Amateur][Party][No Thanks]), but new players or low leveled players aren't necessarily bad players. Conversely, veteran players, or high leveled players aren't necessarily good.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

There's a difference between "Getting help for" and "having someone do it for you" - an argument that almost got me kicked out of my LS at one point when I refused to "sit down at the zone and let me [the 70 war/nin] do it"

Which admitedly, also works FOR the PL argument in that as long as the PL is only helping, and not doing it totally for the party, then its acceptable. But that would be (gasp) opinion as where to actually draw the line.

[S.SubZero]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

I'm strongly anti-PL. While I do not force my opinion on others, my /sea comment does very plainly say "NO PL" "PL {no thanks}." I won't be PL'd, simple as that. The funny thing is that people get *mad* at my comment. One guy got especially aggressive when I refused one when I was running BRD thru the dunes. People also get mad when they invite me, I accept the invite, and see there's a PL, despite my /sea saying I won't be PL'd. I leave and they get all angsty on me. It's nothing personal, I simply won't be PL'd and you simply can't read.

[little ninja]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

So because it was to hard you decided to get a 70+ to help you. so its ok when it suits your needs. otherwise you say "aww screw it". must be nice to have a high lvler to fall back on MR HARDCORE. i mean if i remember correctly it took me over a week to find a bunch of peeps to go item hunting, then to actually win the lots on them.

you missed my whole point. to me the posters say the number 1 reason was PL is bad is it tends to make players water downed. my retort was simply. so does having 4 out of 6 people in the parties with 1 or more job past the 60's. hows a war/mnk gonna learn how to tank an hold hate for later on, when the pt invites a pld/war who just came off of lvling a nin to 75 an understands the concept of hate management.. what you infact create is a lvl 20 war who has no clue or experience doing so. thus his pts later on will suffer for it.

So now your still at sqaure 1, you just took another route. PL = water down jobs, having a hand full of skilled players in the parties makes the younger players water downed.

[ikkleste]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

But, when was the last time you had a party in the dunes where everyone played well, had good gear and subjobs, and used food? I think I had one pt like that. It might've been just a dream I had though...

Maybe because people (even those who should know better) don't play properly in the dunes because they know someone will be there to hold their hand. Why aren't people who have a level 37+ job (as most people do now by a long way) show up with food. THey wouldn't dream of doing it at other levels, why here? If people were willing to spend like 10k on gear and food, and actually give it some attention, you could easily get a level and a half an hour in the dunes. Instead people show up with no food, and level 7 armour (as a PLD!!!! >.<) then the party either sucks horrifcally and has more deaths than victories, has a PL from the start when skill and gear isn't an issue, or starts, does OK, then someone calls in a PL.

Where is the incentive to do things properly, you'll never actually need proper gear and food, because the situation doesn't happen where armour coud save you any more.

QFT

To the naysayers that say PL is bad period. You're all in denial since you couldn't get a PL to your party even if you wanted to. Maybe bitter about the fortunes of other players? Don't come in with a false sense of holier-than-thou attitude, because, by god, you're not Jesus.

As the majority have already spoken, PLs are both good and bad. It's up to each individual player to determine what instance this can be applied to. Some people believe that the money they spent to play this game was meant to play this game as a challenge. Fine, your entitled to your opinions. That, however, does not make it a fact. Other players believe they should get every single penny's worth out of their fee and thus would rather have a PL along on their exp jaunt.

However, to solely blame PL for the number of bad players on any one server is a copout bullshit. Why? Because that's too easy to just lay the blame on any one thing. As Icemage has pointed out time and again in this thread, there will always be good players and bad players.

As you say in one of your other posts you're entitled to your opinion but is the flaming really neccesary? I don't like PL's i'm leveling a melee job for the first time (apart from DRG which i've largly solo'd). I'd quite learn how to tank, pull and fill a DD role properly. Only i havn't had the chance to do that through the dunes, because every time a party sticks together for more than 30mins and shows it's actually capable someone drags in a power leveler. Then hate goes out the window, dificulty of mobs and overpulling goes out of the window.

I'm comeing out of the dunes levels now with no idea on how to hold hate or pull. I'm a worse player thanks to the total presence of PLs at those levels.

But because i dislike this situation and choose to try to avoid a PL situation, i'm somehow jelous i can't get one? I'm sorry that doesn't even make sense. If you read most of the postsof people against PL you'll see the same thing, they actually avoid PLs, noone is jelous becasue they can't find one. Infact i'm pretty P.O'ed i can't avoid the damn things.

its funny we fight over power leveling hurting an helping a pt. but have any of you ever considered our uberness screws those noobs over big time? last week i got one of my mules to 25, a war in fact, do you know how many times he tanked in parties. 0 times. now im in the jungles an a few parties expected me to tank, now this is no big deal for me seeing as im a 75 nin, an a 60+war. but just imagine what it must be like for a young war, whos had the benifets of endgame players bringing up 2 or 3 lvl 75 job. thats where the first big problem is.

Sounds more like an issue with bad players into the higher lvls then the fact of the PL. so heres the solution, STOP INVITING THEM TO YOUR PARTIES!! Seriously. they rely on players like you an myself with endgame knowledge to hold there hands as far as we can take them. i say the heck with them. let them sit afk for hours on end cause i refuse to party with anyone without a subjob, or with some horrid low lvl rank. hey if i can take the time to get 10. they should take the time to get 7 or 8.

JPN can wait 2 hours for a certain job with a certain rank. maybe we should start that as well. then maybe we wont have horrid players into the late 30's.

So how are we meant to get through to 7 or 8 in the first place? If noone will invite us through levels 10-50 because 90% of players now have a 75 job and are all uberer than us, we what? shouldn't be playing the game? only playing with other first time throughers?

[little ninja]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

you missed my whole point. to me the posters say the number 1 reason was PL is bad is it tends to make players water downed. my retort was simply. so does having 4 out of 6 people in the parties with 1 or more job past the 60's. hows a war/mnk gonna learn how to tank an hold hate for later on, when the pt invites a pld/war who just came off of lvling a nin to 75 an understands the concept of hate management.. what you infact create is a lvl 20 war who has no clue or experience doing so. thus his pts later on will suffer for it.

So now your still at sqaure 1, you just took another route. PL = water down jobs, having a hand full of skilled players in the parties makes the younger players water downed. so in either case players are water downed.

[ikkleste]

Re: Pl's. Good or Bad?

So because it was to hard you decided to get a 70+ to help you. so its ok when it suits your needs. otherwise you say "aww screw it". must be nice to have a high lvler to fall back on MR HARDCORE. i mean if i remember correctly it took me over a week to find a bunch of peeps to go item hunting, then to actually win the lots on them.

you missed my whole point. to me the posters say the number 1 reason was PL is bad is it tends to make players water downed. my retort was simply. so does having 4 out of 6 people in the parties with 1 or more job past the 60's. hows a war/mnk gonna learn how to tank an hold hate for later on, when the pt invites a pld/war who just came off of lvling a nin to 75 an understands the concept of hate management.. what you infact create is a lvl 20 war who has no clue or experience doing so. thus his pts later on will suffer for it.

So now your still at sqaure 1, you just took another route. PL = water down jobs, having a hand full of skilled players in the parties makes the younger players water downed.

i see your point a bit better now...
However i'd still argue that PLing is a more intense version of what you have described. Replacing the newb WAR tank with a PLD won't teach the WAR how to tank, but he'll have to control his hate levels still, he might learn to pull. WIth a 75 WHM sat on the side tanking/healing he'll learn nothing, he won't take hate, it doesn't matter what he pulls. The blm even with the uberest tank will have to start learning how to control his hate. WIth a PL they don't. A WHM will still be the main cure even if the 75 brd is leveling his RDM. With a PL he'll be reduced to leveling devine skill and staff. Yes having people who know waht they are doing does make the early levels easier, you can't avoid that though. however theres no need for the PL situation and it causes a much exagurated version of what you've described.