Crusader for justice

[Auron517]

Re: Crusader for justice

Meh, I had written a better response to your post, but the computer I'm using has managed to close this webpage twice after I hit the submit button, and I'm too lazy to do all that agian. My opinion is similar to Grizzle's anyway.

I read your post and saw what you were trying to say, but you saying you'd rather be around "nice" gilsellers, than certain people you call "assholes" doesn't make sense to me.

They seem to realize something that you do not, there is no such thing as a nice/legit gilseller. At the end of the day, RMT is RMT, and they have the same objectives, one of which is to make money at the exploitation of our ingame economy. Which, in case you didn't know, isn't a good thing.

[Ziero]

Re: Crusader for justice

Ok, one thing I just gotta clear up cause it's almost funny how stupid this idea is.

RMT are NOT the only ones ruining the economy.

You know all those high lvl LSs who do nothing but hunt HNMs, kill gods and do all that crap day in and day out. Yeah, they're doin just as bad, if not worse to the economy. PLAYERS, legit, RMT or whatever, are the ones screwing over the economy. You want proof?

Venomous Claw, it can only be obtained through certain specific events. Three random spawn HNMs(Serket, Tyranic Tirrok and King Vinny iirc), two forced pop Gods (who can drop multiple claws) and a KSNM fight. Now where do most of the V claws come from? Is it from the three 21-24 hour spawn HNMs? Nope, no chance in hell. Is it from the farmed daily with people WAITING ON LINES to kill them forced HNMs? You betcha. Is it from the easily repeatable, easily manaburned, easily soloed KSNM fight? Yeah that too.

Can you monopolize random spawn HNMs? Yup. Can you monopolize forced popped gods and KSNM fights? Not a chance in hell.

Now that we know where they come from, lets think back to before christmas. On my server, Vclaws were about 6-7 mil on average, during christmas they jumped up to over 20 mil EACH. Guess who benefeited from that. Yup, those end game HNMLSs and high lvl players. I'm sure gil sellers got their fair share, but for every 1 claw serket drops at least 10 come from ol' Genbu.

Example two, snipers, archers and woodsman rings. Before christmas these were about 1.5-2 mil each. During christmas they both shot up to well over 6 mil each. GIL SELLERS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THESE ITEMS. That was ALL player based inflation, because people would spend more others would sell for more.

Third example, the Nikkarroie (prolly spelled that wrong, don't feel like looking it up). This is a great lvl 30 nin katana that before christmas sold for barely 600k on average. While lvling my nin I wanted one of these, but didn't want to pay for it. So I did some research, found where it dropped and camped it. During christmas a few friends of mine who got their nins to 30 wanted it too and I suggested they camped it. They said, without even trying, that it would be too hard because 'gil sellers' were botting it. Seeing as I knew it's spawns inside and out, and needed some quick cash, I decided to camp it again. I go there 4 times. Not once did I lose claim on it and not ONCE was there a gil seller there. When I found myself with free time I'd /sea the area to determine the competition and never did I see the same names there for extended amounts of time through multiple days. Despite that fact however the price shot up over 2 mil gil, with a different name for each sale.

Now these are just three examples, but I'm sure the point is clear. Gil sellers in and of themselves have VERY little direct effect on prices in the AH. All they do is make it easier for idiots to spend more cash then they should. Gil BUYERS cause more inflation then sellers.

Now, point number two. I myself would rather be friends with a polite and 'honest' gil seller then an MPKing, botting, stealing jack ass who didn't sell or buy gil. They both break the rules, as I'm sure many if not most of us have done, but one has less impact then the other. If gil sellers never MPKed, botted, Kill stole ect, I gaurentee this type of problem would not exist. People would barely notice them if they weren't right in their face. But they are, and they piss people off, and it's the fact they break ALL the rules to get their gil that causes such hate.

It's not because they sell gil, but because they cause so much trouble to get it. And people going around harrassing them only ENCOURAGES them to cause such trouble. You think you're the only ones who want to get a lil revenge? You MPK them while they wait for an NM and they'll return the favor. They break one rule, you break the same rule, and in the end you have no more morals then they do.

Warp 2'ing people who don't want it is a jack assey thing to do, but it's still funny as hell and that person's own fault for joining the party. People will do that to 'legit' miners and NM campers too. But MPKing people and stealing in the name of 'justice', that's just stupid. There's no justice, just the self satisfication found in vengance. You don't do it to help the community, you do it to please your own egos. And that's clear in every post made by people who do want to MPK people they 'think' are sellers.

[silentsteel]

Re: Crusader for justice

Ok, one thing I just gotta clear up cause it's almost funny how stupid this idea is.

RMT are NOT the only ones ruining the economy.

You know all those high lvl LSs who do nothing but hunt HNMs, kill gods and do all that crap day in and day out. Yeah, they're doin just as bad, if not worse to the economy. PLAYERS, legit, RMT or whatever, are the ones screwing over the economy. You want proof?

Venomous Claw, it can only be obtained through certain specific events. Three random spawn HNMs(Serket, Tyranic Tirrok and King Vinny iirc), two forced pop Gods (who can drop multiple claws) and a KSNM fight. Now where do most of the V claws come from? Is it from the three 21-24 hour spawn HNMs? Nope, no chance in hell. Is it from the farmed daily with people WAITING ON LINES to forced HNMs? You betcha. Is it from the easily repeatable, easily manaburned, easily soloed KSNM fight? Yeah that too.

Can you monopolize random spawn HNMs? Yup. Can you monopolize forced popped gods and KSNM fights? Not a chance in hell.

Now that we know where they come from, lets think back to before christmas. On my server, Vclaws were about 6-7 mil on average, during christmas they jumped up to over 20 mil EACH. Guess who benefeited from that. Yup, those end game HNMLSs and high lvl players. I'm sure gil sellers got their fair share, but for every 1 claw serket drops at least 10 come from ol' Genbu.

Example two, snipers, archers and woodsman rings. Before christmas these were about 1.5-2 mil each. During christmas they both shot up to well over 6 mil each. GIL SELLERS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THESE ITEMS. That was ALL player based inflation, because people would spend more others would sell for more.

Third example, the Nikkarroie (prolly spelled that wrong, don't feel like looking it up). This is a great lvl 30 nin katana that before christmas sold for barely 600k on average. While lvling my nin I wanted one of these, but didn't want to pay for it. So I did some research, found where it dropped and camped it. During christmas a few friends of mine who got their nins to 30 wanted it too and I suggested they camped it. They said, without even trying, that it would be too hard because 'gil sellers' were botting it. Seeing as I knew it's spawns inside and out, and needed some quick cash, I decided to camp it again. I go there 4 times. Not once did I lose claim on it and not ONCE was there a gil seller there. When I found myself with free time I'd /sea the area to determine the competition and never did I see the same names there for extended amounts of time through multiple days. Despite that fact however the price shot up over 2 mil gil, with a different name for each sale.

Now these are just three examples, but I'm sure the point is clear. Gil sellers in and of themselves have VERY little direct effect on prices in the AH. All they do is make it easier for idiots to spend more cash then they should. Gil BUYERS cause more inflation then sellers.

Now, point number two. I myself would rather be friends with a polite and 'honest' gil seller then an MPKing, botting, stealing jack ass who didn't sell or buy gil. They both break the rules, as I'm sure many if not most of us have done, but one has less impact then the other. If gil sellers never MPKed, botted, Kill stole ect, I gaurentee this type of problem would not exist. People would barely notice them if they weren't right in their face. But they are, and they people off, and it's the fact they break ALL the rules to get their gil that causes such .

It's not because they sell gil, but because they cause so much trouble to get it. And people going around harrassing them only ENCOURAGES them to cause such trouble. You think you're the only ones who want to get a lil revenge? You MPK them while they wait for an NM and they'll return the favor. They break one rule, you break the same rule, and in the end you have no more morals then they do.

Warp 2'ing people who don't want it is a jack assey thing to do, but it's still funny as hell and that person's own fault for joining the party. People will do that to 'legit' miners and NM campers too. But MPKing people and stealing in the name of 'justice', that's just stupid. There's no justice, just the self satisfication found in vengance. You don't do it to help the community, you do it to please your own egos. And that's clear in every post made by people who do want to MPK people they 'think' are sellers.

Its funny how true this is and yet no one wants to take the blame themselves. Its always, "I have no effect on the economy, so it must be people that are blatanly selling gil." Well, they arent jacking up prices just to get more gil in the first place though. (at least some of them, more often than not) Its players themselves, wanting to hoard more gil so that they can use it on bigger an better stuff.

Back in that first post, I dont call that justice, I call that Stupidity, he had no proof that that person was an RMT and I think that he deserved what he got. I also agree with Kalieh(sorry, cant see it XD) that if I absolutely had to, I would rather do something with an RMT that got everything legitimately than a player that used bots & , or an RMT that did the same thing. That doesn't mean though that I would prefer to do stuff with an RMT, I don't, just saying if I Had to.

[Hamlet]

Re: Crusader for justice

Ok, one thing I just gotta clear up cause it's almost funny how stupid this idea is.

RMT are NOT the only ones ruining the economy.

You know all those high lvl LSs who do nothing but hunt HNMs, kill gods and do all that crap day in and day out. Yeah, they're doin just as bad, if not worse to the economy. PLAYERS, legit, RMT or whatever, are the ones screwing over the economy. You want proof?

Venomous Claw, it can only be obtained through certain specific events. Three random spawn HNMs(Serket, Tyranic Tirrok and King Vinny iirc), two forced pop Gods (who can drop multiple claws) and a KSNM fight. Now where do most of the V claws come from? Is it from the three 21-24 hour spawn HNMs? Nope, no chance in hell. Is it from the farmed daily with people WAITING ON LINES to kill them forced HNMs? You betcha. Is it from the easily repeatable, easily manaburned, easily soloed KSNM fight? Yeah that too.

Can you monopolize random spawn HNMs? Yup. Can you monopolize forced popped gods and KSNM fights? Not a chance in hell.

Now that we know where they come from, lets think back to before christmas. On my server, Vclaws were about 6-7 mil on average, during christmas they jumped up to over 20 mil EACH. Guess who benefeited from that. Yup, those end game HNMLSs and high lvl players. I'm sure gil sellers got their fair share, but for every 1 claw serket drops at least 10 come from ol' Genbu.

Example two, snipers, archers and woodsman rings. Before christmas these were about 1.5-2 mil each. During christmas they both shot up to well over 6 mil each. GIL SELLERS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THESE ITEMS. That was ALL player based inflation, because people would spend more others would sell for more.

Third example, the Nikkarroie (prolly spelled that wrong, don't feel like looking it up). This is a great lvl 30 nin katana that before christmas sold for barely 600k on average. While lvling my nin I wanted one of these, but didn't want to pay for it. So I did some research, found where it dropped and camped it. During christmas a few friends of mine who got their nins to 30 wanted it too and I suggested they camped it. They said, without even trying, that it would be too hard because 'gil sellers' were botting it. Seeing as I knew it's spawns inside and out, and needed some quick cash, I decided to camp it again. I go there 4 times. Not once did I lose claim on it and not ONCE was there a gil seller there. When I found myself with free time I'd /sea the area to determine the competition and never did I see the same names there for extended amounts of time through multiple days. Despite that fact however the price shot up over 2 mil gil, with a different name for each sale.

Now these are just three examples, but I'm sure the point is clear. Gil sellers in and of themselves have VERY little direct effect on prices in the AH. All they do is make it easier for idiots to spend more cash then they should. Gil BUYERS cause more inflation then sellers.

Now, point number two. I myself would rather be friends with a polite and 'honest' gil seller then an MPKing, botting, stealing jack ass who didn't sell or buy gil. They both break the rules, as I'm sure many if not most of us have done, but one has less impact then the other. If gil sellers never MPKed, botted, Kill stole ect, I gaurentee this type of problem would not exist. People would barely notice them if they weren't right in their face. But they are, and they piss people off, and it's the fact they break ALL the rules to get their gil that causes such hate.

It's not because they sell gil, but because they cause so much trouble to get it. And people going around harrassing them only ENCOURAGES them to cause such trouble. You think you're the only ones who want to get a lil revenge? You MPK them while they wait for an NM and they'll return the favor. They break one rule, you break the same rule, and in the end you have no more morals then they do.

Warp 2'ing people who don't want it is a jack assey thing to do, but it's still funny as hell and that person's own fault for joining the party. People will do that to 'legit' miners and NM campers too. But MPKing people and stealing in the name of 'justice', that's just stupid. There's no justice, just the self satisfication found in vengance. You don't do it to help the community, you do it to please your own egos. And that's clear in every post made by people who do want to MPK people they 'think' are sellers.

So, gilbuyers are the problem? Who are these gilbuyers buying their gil from, I wonder...

Most of your examples cite the big inflation, which was directly caused by a gilselling sale (or indirectly by gilbuying, if you'd like).

There's a couple problems with your theory.

1- HNMs is one of the main endgame activities in the game.

2- gilselling introduces way more gil into the economy then there should be. I doubt most gilsellers would be playing ffxi legitimately if it wasn't their job.

I understand from reading your many posts on this subject that you don't have any problem with gilselling, but I think that's because you don't quite understand their influence on the economy.

[Ryddr]

Re: Crusader for justice

Gilsellers don't 'play' the game. They ruin it. I doubt any real gilseller gets an ounce of excitement when they see an NM pop or when they sell a drop for 30M. To even classify them as players is ridiculous because they're not not playing, they're working. They're making some random guy (their boss) a bit more wealthy while simulanteously causing the economy and players to suffer. This refers more to the posts on the first page, but...I could care less about what happens to gilsellers in-game, regardless of any authority against it.



[rant]lol...what happened to the days when you could just be walking up through South Gustaburg and see Lizzy unclaimed and in the open? Making the drop ra/ex makes this possible (happened to me last week), but takes the enjoyment out of a drop, unless you specifically need it. Players should sell items to players. Gilsellers shouldn't exist....blarrrrgghhhh!!~ [/rant]



[e d i t] Think I'll level Blm...d2 on GS sounds like a good idea lol. Too bad Flare isn't an option....

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

Too bad Flare isn't an option....

It is when Charm is a part of the equation, and guess what!? It isn't harassment and we don't need proof! You can just blast away to your heart's content.

[Matera]

Re: Crusader for justice

Hamlet summed it up nicely.

The problem is that first of all, as mentioned, the way gilsellers make their money is by exploiting shit.

The problem with the christmas boom was that gilsellers released their stock. So?

Basically, when they horde gil, it's not active in the economy. When they sell it, it's active. They're fucking up the economy.

And as I said earlier:

The percentage of MPKing, botting, hacking, impolite gilsellers far outweighs the percentage of regular players who do the same.

I'd definately call it justice, as we're enforcing the law, one that NOBODY ELSE is willing to enforce.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Crusader for justice

Someone who hasn't levelled past 50 citing it's down to these evil high level players and LS's. I thought that line was used up over two years ago.

Briefly, all of the KSNMs and ENMs that give items like the V-claw are indeed camped to Hell and back, they're camped by gil-sellers. Sure players will sell at the going rate, what's the alternative, put the item cheaper in your Bazaar and watch an RMT come along and buy it then sell it for an inflated price?

Anyone who even entertains the thought of partying / associating with RMT really deserves everything they get in FFXI. If you can't see how they're slowly destroying the game I'm amazed by your lack of common sense.

And, on an unrelated note, is it really so necessary to quote an entire long arsed thread in its entirety... twice? Surely you can clip it down to a relevant few lines or just say you agree with the post. Otherwise it's just annoying spam.

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

The Christmas rush was because they lowered prices so extensively that every player and their hampster could afford it. It was down to about $6/1M at the lowest, half of what it's at now.

[Ziero]

Re: Crusader for justice

Gil selling doesn't 'introduce' more gil into the economy, it just gives it to those that don't know how to use it. People buy gil because they want to, people sell gil because there are people willing to buy it. If you got rid of every single gil seller more would just show up because the market is still there. Get rid of the buyers and the sellers will disappear too. People don't by gil just because they can, they WANT to get it easy and someone was smart enough to provide these people with the service they wanted. The reason why EVERY MMORPG has RMT is because a percentage of the player base WANTS RMT. They are the ones who welcome it in and cause it to flourish.

And yes all those situations were examples of big inflation, but the gil SELLERS did not cause the prices to rise like that, PLAYERS did. That was the whole point of the post. Gil sellers weren't the ones to place sniper and woodsmans up for 5 mil, players were. Gil sellers weren't the ones buying them for 5 mil, players were.

By reading your post you obviously don't understand WHY that happened. All the sellers did was give gil to those who did not care enough to make it and did not know enough to use it wisely. THOSE people are the ones who caused the massive inflation, an influx of people with more gil then they knew what to do with and a mass amount of high lvl, greedy players who took advantage of their ignorance. I know HNMs are a major endgame activity, I said that as THEY are the ones who have the most control over the economy. They determine how much to sell the high lvl end game items for based on the demands of people who want to buy. The gil sellers provide gil to those who want and the end game HNMLSs jack up their prices to get more from these buyers causing the massive inflation.

Gil Sellers move the money, they don't make it.

But most high lvl players don't complain about prices, rather they complain about the MPKs, kill steals and botting from the gil sellers. But OTHER 'legit' HNMLSs do the same exact things and they're over looked when these witch hunts start because they can't be neatly placed in the 'Absolute evil' bin like a gil seller can be. And instead of shunning these actions the Gil Sellers and certain HNMLSs use to gain their fortunes more people encourage and participate in it and claim it's some sick sense of justice.

I do not like RMT. I don't like it when people sell it I don't like it when people buy it. If I can get an item myself as opposed to the AH I do so as that wil benefiet me 100% and them 0%. If I can't get it from where ever and need to use the AH, I farm, craft, camp NM, do quests and whatever else I can for gil until I have enough. Then when I try to purchase it I make sure to bid low and slowly go up till I either get it or decide it's not worth it.

My problem comes from people throwing around words like 'justice' and saying they have the 'right' to break whatever rule they feel in the name of it.

[silentsteel]

Re: Crusader for justice

My problem comes from people throwing around words like 'justice' and saying they have the 'right' to break whatever rule they fell in the name of it.

Complete Agreeance there. Breaking a rule to do something is in no way "Justice" all it is is a twisted persons saying that "Well, since I'm not going to get the right people to deal with it, I will myself".

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

jus·tice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jsts) n.
The quality of being just; fairness.
The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.
The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.

I suppose being self righteous we could achieve 'self justice', but through righteous efforts we can obtain a sense of justice. Seeing as how our moral tables differ greatly, telling us we could never obtain justice by striking back at the RMT would be wrong. If our morals were the same, that statement would be true.

The way gil enters and exits the economy is what has the most effect, not only on the economy itself but the players. I'd say it's 65% RMT related, 30% player related, and 5% random. The RMT ultimately controls the flow, while the players react accordingly, and there's always the random factor that might spark the inflation itself or cause prices to crash.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Crusader for justice

My problem comes from people throwing around words like 'justice' and saying they have the 'right' to break whatever rule they feel in the name of it.

You'd probably be surprised to know I agree with you. However, ultimately everyone has a breaking point with these RMT and every so often a player will take matters into their own hands through sheer frustration and GM's lack of action. Doesn't mean it's right or within the ToS but sometimes you have to accept that by doing nothing you are supporting RMT. If it means you hindered them at the expense of playing FFXI then that's a decision for the player to make. Personally, I can understand people walking away from a game so heavily dominated by RMT when S-E do so very little to enforce the rules.

I still raise the point I made over a year ago, the reason RMT have such an impact on FFXI is purely down to game design and content. There is RMT in AC1 and 2, EQ and EQ2, WoW, DAoC, Lineage 2, SWG, etc and yet their effect on those games is negligible, so, why is it so pronounced on FFXI?

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

I still raise the point I made over a year ago, the reason RMT have such an impact on FFXI is purely down to game design and content. There is RMT in AC1 and 2, EQ and EQ2, WoW, DAoC, Lineage 2, SWG, etc and yet their effect on those games is negligible, so, why is it so pronounced on FFXI?

The economy is effed up because of, in my opinion, the auction house logs. You can see who bought what for how much and increase or decrease accordingly, causing trends in inflation and deflation. Not only that, but what we have to equip is pretty limited compared to other games. FFXI has a lot more 'must haves' than other games.

In World of Warcraft, my only other lengthy MMO experience, there was a large selection and no real average price for any item except the big ticket items. You just checked what was up, priced accordingly if you could, or just BS'd it hoping somebody would buy it. But now, because of RMT, the economy from level 1-29 is so screwed.

The gil sellers know the lengths people are willing to go for these 'must haves' and are acting on it. The lengths they're willing to go to matches the lengths we're willing to go to.

[Ryddr]

Re: Crusader for justice

In World of Warcraft, my only other lengthy MMO experience, there was a large selection and no real average price for any item except the big ticket items. You just checked what was up, priced accordingly if you could, or just BS'd it hoping somebody would buy it. But now, because of RMT, the economy from level 1-29 is so screwed.

[e d i t] [Concerning WoW]
And this is heavily influenced by the way in which the items are obtained. There are tons more items because regular mobs can drop a wide array of them. You can kill a <insert random mob here> and get a nice pair of gloves that'll last you 5 levels. You can find everything you need on the AH of course, but you'll also end up finding extra items along the way as you fight. The big ticket items you spoke of are usually exclusive to one instance, so players can actually calculate how rarely it's found when running that particular instance. [/Concerning WoW]


In FFXI the big ticket items also come from rather defined methods. Most come from NMs, and that's what the gilsellers take advantage of most. Players' willingness to purchase items at prices that totally outweigh their actual utility. The game needs more items to take the focus off of specific ones.


If mobs had a wider variety of drops in FFXI I think it would do some good. A level 40 yagudo in castle oztroja dropping level 29 gloves (with no stats) is in no way helpful.....to anyone....mainly because a level 29 player wouldn't even bother using the gloves. If the items/drops were more useful and plentiful, and the AH didn't display price history (as you said), then maybe the economy would be OK, but I'm sure SE knows this already.....

[e d i t 2]

It is when Charm is a part of the equation, and guess what!? It isn't harassment and we don't need proof! You can just blast away to your heart's content.

BTW, like the sound of that