Crusader for justice

[Myaku]

Re: Crusader for justice

Indeed, but i just dont consider myself a vigilante simply because i dont go out looking for them, but if they cross my way and theres something i can do, i will. Thats not vigilance, thats taking advantage of whats at my disposal to get rid of something that hinders me, im not trying to enforce law, even if my actions are clearly against things that are considered ilegal, but the reason is because it hinders me down and not because of a ToS.

So you don't do this for the good of FFXI, you do it for yourself. Personally, I think that makes your actions even less acceptable, as they lose any sembelence of nobility in defending of a greater good.

The thing is that theres no infrigiment on my part, sorry, whatever you say about D2 is false, the intent might be ... "harassing", but until SE releases a statement saying that involuntary (sp) D2 is considered harassment, i will rest my case. Took them a while to do that in regards to MPK and gilselling. So technically theres no ToS violation, and i dont care for them breaking ToS like i clearly stated at the end: i just do whatever i can to remove a hindrance out of my way, ilegally if the situation calls for it, but only got to that extreme once, and it wasnt in this situation.

I hate to tell you, but SE will never spell out every possible situation in their ToS. It is open to SE's interpretation, as they are the supreme authority in FFXI. I guarantee you that they would see the situation of D2ing someone involunarily as harassment.

Because a scheeme is nothing but an intent or plan of action, the deed itself is the only thing that can be against ToS, which means D2ing someone will never be against ToS unless they specify it so.

Right, D2ing someone is not agianst the ToS. Harassing someone by D2ing them when they did not request it, is against the ToS, weather or not you want to admit it.

In normal situations, what i did would be considered in bad taste. But theres a big difference in killing an innocent over killing a criminal, is there not? Both can be considered /wrong/ as no one deserves death, but one of them probably brought more good than harm.

That is a loaded example, but if we look at it as it is presented, and I kill two people, that would be double murder. The ends do not justify the means. The fact that one of them was not a model citizen does not morally justify his murder.

And in this case its not even about death, its about a group of dumbasses who lost 10 mins of their lives coming back to the point from where they were warped of.

10 minutes or 10 hours, it doesn't matter, what you did was still harassment and against the ToS.

In resume: You plot a course of action that can be considered in bad taste depending on the circumstances. No matter what your intent is, you cannot be judged until you carry it out. The thing is, your plan is not against the law, see what i mean? Had i plotted to MPK, carrying the plan out would be an infraction, because its stated that MPK is against ToS.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. I agree that you cannot punish someone for only planning to do something, but you did more than just plan.

I dont consider that a defensive statement, what i said was that someone who doesnt look to their heart and judgement to carry out their life is someone who is empty and void of emotion,

Ok, I get you on that. This is where we differ - you seem to advocate taking action and I am a firm believer in Karma. I will not do a thing to actively support RMT, but I am not going to go on a Crusade against them either. They will get theirs in the end.

but this is quite far from the point i want to make: that sometimes you have to bend the reality around you.

The fact that you have to "bend the reality" to justify your actions should tell you something. It certainly tells me something.

The thing with fooling someone puts me in a position where people think im an ass, but not in the position of being banned for it. The thing is... i could care less what others think. Though i like to state my reasons.

I respect that, you are standing by your guns. Don't be surprised when you do get suspended/banned for it though.

It's not because someone shuns me, its because they say that in a certain angle, gilsellers are ok and welcome, which i cant wrap my head around.

I will agree with that also. They are certainly not ok or welcome in my book, but I choose to protest a lot less aggressively than you.

[Ziero]

Re: Crusader for justice

You have SERIOUS anger issues

And you're diluded if you think RMT is the only thing controlling the economies. Those high lvl HNM shells have a nice firm grip on things too, many of them bot, lie, steal, MPK and all those wonderful things too but not ONE person has declared 'war' on them.

SELLERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM

Follow them around, go ahead, see what happens.

That's right, nothing. You'll waste your day harrassing one while the countless others go about their day selling to people who BUY it. People will still get MPKed if gil sellers were gone. NMs would still get stolen if gil sellers were gone. People would STILL BUY GIL if gil sellers are gone.

You people think it's easy to get rid of gil sellers? Just pester them enough and they'll just quit? Wrong, pester them enough and they'll come back, with friends, for you. Gang justice does not work, and that's what this whole thing is about.

I fight against gil sellers, but I do it WITHIN the confines of the ToS. I farm/craft/hunt NMs and do all that when I need gil and I urge and teach others to do it too. I advise people to not buy gil because it will only end up ruining things in the end and I *help* people who need help because if we help each other more people will return the favor.

There will ALWAYS be gil sellers. That's not an option or opinion, it's a FACT. EVERY MMORPG has RMT, every single one. As long as there is a need for money in a online video game, people will be willing to buy it with real cash. Call me a deafetist or 'surrender monkey' or whatever you will, I call it being a realist. Because there is NOTHING you can do that will magically make your server in FFXI suddenly stop having gil sellers.

But just because YOU can't get rid of them doesn't mean you have to help them. Set up networks AROUND them, avoid the AH and trade directly with people. If you need something get it from the NM or farm it, despite the gil sellers it's still possible to do. Ignoring them will not help them and it will not break the ToS causing you to get banned then bitch cause you were.

And for the last time, if you are going to hate on gil sellers for breaking all the rule, then hate ALL people who do the same things they do. There are more then enough 'real' players who bot, cheat, steal, mpk, steal NMs, and all that crap that don't sell gil. THEY should be treated the same, if not worse then gil sellers.

[Raydeus]

Re: Crusader for justice

Two wrongs don't make a right, eye for an eye and the world would be blind, etc...

All that is bullshit.

Do you expect people to lie down and get fucked over? Yes, I do, actually, because people can be pussies like that. I'm not getting fucked myself. I'm going to do whatever I can to prevent RMT from obtaining a complete stranglehold on my server's economy again. I don't buy gil, so I shouldn't have to put up with the adverse effects of what happens when others buy gil. YOU GUYS SHOULDN'T EITHER.

Just fight fire with fire. I won't care if I get suspended or banned, I'll know what I did was right, and that >99% of the rest of you just want to sit down and act like it's not big deal.

If a group of people isn't doing something about another group of people that are doing something bad, then it's up to somebody else, because guess where everybody in the whole world would be if they just lied down and took it?

That's right, it'd be really fucking retarded, like Hitler's Nazi World, or the Spanish would rule the world or something.

Sure, it's "just a game", but it's my game, that I pay for, that I have a right to be in, just like I have a right to be on this planet.

Keep in mind it's the GM's/Dev Team's job to keep RMT COMPLETELY in check, and what do they do?

"Oh, we'll, uh, limit deliveries of money!"

Yeah, that's going to stop a gilselling conglomerate.

If you can prevent RMT from claiming that NM, mining in Gusgen, or anything of that sort, a gold star goes to you.

For the gilseller characters:

In war, people shoot people because of opposing views.

Here, RMT fucks around with us, and only a few people do things about it.

As far as I'm concerned, there should be a fucking war against RMT. Everybody, follow around an RMT and make their fucking life hell, please. If not for yourself, your game, or your own fun, then do it for your fellow comrades.

In a war you have one group of people fighting another, so you know who the enemy is, it's clearly defined.

You fighting a "war against RMT" is just you trying to take your anger and frustration on someone, it doesn't help anything, it does nothing. And you can take a lot of innocent people with you simply because you don't know what you are doing.

RMT works in the same way as terrorism does (note that I'm not saying is the same, it just works in a similar way), you have your recognized groups (gilsellers sites), then you have many individual cells that work in a smaller scale independantly for them (gilseller characters in the game).

They blend in the population until they can attack, the same way most RMT just play the game and make gil till they sell it to gilseller sites.


How do you as a player know who is RMT and who is just playing the game?

"They don't speak english"?
"They are logged 24/7"?
"They camp the same NM over and over again"?

None of which has any validity unless you present proof of you acusations.

And so people just goes to try to take justice in their own hands, the funny thing is that they can't see what they are attacking, they have no evidence, only a bunch of conjectures. They go and make other people suffer because they are so sure this people are guilty (even though they have no proof of it).

If you can't see what's wrong with this then don't be surprised next time someone mpks you if you try to camp a NM or if you have to farm to buy some expensive gear and spend more that 3 days at the same camp, because the same way you judge and label other people as gilsellers others can label you as well.

If this vigilante justice was somewhat aproved gilsellers would use it as well, they would be able to label anyone a gilseller and mpk and harass them as much as they wanted to.


You might not understand this, but all those rules, all that "evidence before finding someone guilty of something" is meant to protect you.


Because if things worked the way you want them to work more likely than not it would be the gilsellers who would bring hell over legit players and not the other way around.

[Murphie]

Re: Crusader for justice

The day that people band together to form an army to fight a "war" against gilsellers is the day I stop playing, because everyone in the game has gone batshit crazy.

The only way to really fight RMT in the game (and any MMO) is by not purchasing the things they sell, and encouraging others to avoid purchasing them as well. Also, encourage others not to buy gil outside the game. But guess what - that's never going to happen. People love their gear a little bit too much to take things to that kind of extreme, so they'd rather break the TOS in the name of "justice" and so that they can feel better for a while about the whole thing, meanwhile the RMT just shrug it off as a minor setback and keep on doing what they do.

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

SELLERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM

They're part of the problem, but which part would you going to deal with first? The RMT, or the players? SE is currently dealing with niether, leaving it up to the players to do what they can.

if this vigilante justice was somewhat aproved gilsellers would use it as well, they would be able to label anyone a gilseller and mpk and harass them as much as they wanted to.

Oh wait, this already happened, except they just called it MPK and left it at that. Ask ANYBODY who used to camp Amemet on Seraph who Chrismeng is and they'll collectively have enough stories to fill a book.

Telling us we don't know who they are is just horseshit. You don't need proof for a fact to remain a fact, and asking for proof all the time is just rediculous. It's the same thing with you guys, over and over; harassment and proof, harassment and proof. You just sound like kids reciting from a book.

[Tirrock]

Re: Crusader for justice

Tirrock's half-time (I can only hope this topic stops at 6 pages) summary!

Anti-Gilsellers: GMs do nothing, but we can't stand by and do nothing!
Not-So-Anti-Gilsellers: You're as bad as the gilsellers!

We should all try to find a common ground first. How about we all agree that disecting someone's posts into 20 segments, each with your own little comment after them gets old really fast?

Can we just let this die? People killing gilsellers doesn't effect you.

[Murphie]

Re: Crusader for justice

Can we just let this die? People killing gilsellers doesn't effect you.

Agreed. However, people bitching about getting banninated and/or suspended for breaking the TOS in their war against RMT is annoying.

If you are going to engage in this kind of behavior, these are the risks you take, folks.

[Matera]

Re: Crusader for justice

I see people have come to my defence. >.>

Maybe I exagerated a bit about the War on RMTerrorism *cough*. Maybe I got a little angry. From my PoV, though, it seems like people are defending those that are a big part of the games inflation, mining point thieves, MPKers, and all the like. And yes, I am saying if you were to take a poll, you'd find that the percentage of gilsellers that break the rules and are less courteous (mining point thieves, campers that camp on top of you), far outweigh the amount of regular players.

Seriously though?

I'd consider it a job well done if RMT tries to gang up on me to make my life hell. I'm taking away from their productivity.

As for the sellers not being the problem...

Assholes are going to buy gil if it's available. Sellers will do what they can to provide gil, and thus, their paychecks.The demand and/or supply would both have to be non-existant if we want to ever stop it, but, that's highly improbable.

As far as I'm concerned, you void the right to be protected under the wing of the law if you break it. Now, translated in real life, this would be chaotic, because about 90% of the population (Approximately) has broken the law previously.

In game, there are only so many who break the rules (Yeah, that includes me). This is where it should apply. But, if that were the case, and they couldn't call GMs or anything, they'd still be around.

I've reported suspicious activity more than you could shake a stick at (Speed hacks and more). What has come of it? Nothing. So I'm doing the community a favour, and while I'm out warping some gilselling miner, somebody else can pick up that darksteel they would've dug up. Maybe another gilseller, maybe me, maybe somebody who doesn't even know what a gilseller is, but at the very least it won't be that seller.

And as for the previous comment about HNM shells, I'd like to add that they're not PAID in real to make people's lives a living hell, and HNM shells don't effect everybody. Gilselling, however, affects prices of those crystals that you want to synth with, the armor that everybody needs, and a LOT more, aside from prices.

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

I'm mostly against their devious and unlawful claiming practices. This wasn't always a problem, they used to be like any other Joe Camper. Now they monopolize anything worth spending the time to obtain, which isn't Rare/Ex, and SE waits until they monopolize it every single time before doing anything. SE's definition of monopolize is very broad, and they're completely oblivious of the bots they use. They can detect our windowers, but not bots? I would think you'd be able to see the flurry of activity while the bot runs it's routines and such.

[Maju]

Re: Crusader for justice

Personally I think the way GMs need absolute proof of things is horse crap. Many long time players have no trouble telling who is a gil seller and who is not. Now if only we had GMs who actually know what's going on on the servers.

I also strongly believe that anyone who professionally sells gil should be completely outlawed whether they cheat or not, just like any other asshole. Giving them hell might not prevent them from continuing with their business, but it does annoy them, which gives the player who did it and those who found out about the act a great deal of pleasure. And we play his game for pleasure.

When the GMs are doing absolutely nothing to solve a problem, I don't see anything wrong with the players trying to solve it themselves however ineffective their methods may be.

[Kailea]

Re: Crusader for justice

Personally I think the way GMs need absolute proof of things is horse crap. Many long time players have no trouble telling who is a gil seller and who is not. Now if only we had GMs who actually know what's going on on the servers.

I also strongly believe that anyone who professionally sells gil should be completely outlawed whether they cheat or not, just like any other asshole. Giving them hell might not prevent them from continuing with their business, but it does annoy them, which gives the player who did it and those who found out about the act a great deal of pleasure. And we play his game for pleasure.

When the GMs are doing absolutely nothing to solve a problem, I don't see anything wrong with the players trying to solve it themselves however ineffective their methods may be.

hahahaha you have no clue how a GM does their job......
A GM, like every normal player... can not prove anyone is a gilseller.....also it is not clean cut...

-GMs cant ban without good proof
-Players can not take matters in their own hands (without geting banned themselves)
-Not all Gilsellers cheat, many play the game lagitly
-a charater on 24/7 does not lable them a Gilsellers... I had 3 friends that played oen charater on EQ just tl get it really high fast, or get alot of money when they needed new armor

I dont like what Gilselling does.... but there is also not much you can do but call a GM and let them take care of it

if anyone did what some of you have done here, I would remove you from my LS or friends list that second

........Gilselling is not really right, but neather is takeing matters into your own hands

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

And that's the 'Bend over and take it' attitude we all detest.

[Murphie]

Re: Crusader for justice

That's a nice way of putting it. Meanwhile, I will continue to not feel bad for people who get in trouble for breaking the rules in order to punish people for breaking the rules.

Because - irony.

[Mhurron]

Re: Crusader for justice

And that's the 'Bend over and take it' attitude we all detest.

No, it's the play by the rules you agreed to abide by attitude.

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

No, it's the play by the rules you agreed to abide by attitude.

People need to realize when following the rules isn't going to cut it anymore. People need to adapt and overcome, but only while fully understanding the possible consequences of their actions, like Ael said.

I'm a firm believer that rules must adapt to the situation as well. When the authorities are unwilling to deal with the matter at hand, somebody else must.