Crusader for justice

[Feba]

Re: Crusader for justice

oh, I know there are plenty of fulltime sellers as well. Groups of Rank 2 bastokan tarus trying to rise through the ranks manaburning at lv30 have shown that all too well.

[Icemage]

Re: Crusader for justice

Some of the RMTs on Midgardsormr are definitely worked on "shifts". I've seen the same characters in Kuftal Tunnel for years; sometimes they'll Raise you if you die in an XP party, other times they'll MPK you for pulling a Robber Crab. Same character, but different people behind the keyboard.


Icemage

[Balfree]

Re: Crusader for justice

vig·i·lan·te
n.

1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

Hmmm, maybe my reading comprehensions skills are lacking, but I am pretty sure that make you a vigilante. D2 is not illegal in and of itself, but D2ing someone who did not want to be D2'd falls under harassment. RMT and harassment are both against the ToS.

Indeed, but i just dont consider myself a vigilante simply because i dont go out looking for them, but if they cross my way and theres something i can do, i will. Thats not vigilance, thats taking advantage of whats at my disposal to get rid of something that hinders me, im not trying to enforce law, even if my actions are clearly against things that are considered ilegal, but the reason is because it hinders me down and not because of a ToS.

Does no one else see the hypocrisy in breaking the ToS to enforce the ToS?

The thing is that theres no infrigiment on my part, sorry, whatever you say about D2 is false, the intent might be ... "harassing", but until SE releases a statement saying that involuntary (sp) D2 is considered harassment, i will rest my case. Took them a while to do that in regards to MPK and gilselling. So technically theres no ToS violation, and i dont care for them breaking ToS like i clearly stated at the end: i just do whatever i can to remove a hindrance out of my way, ilegally if the situation calls for it, but only got to that extreme once, and it wasnt in this situation.

Because a scheeme is nothing but an intent or plan of action, the deed itself is the only thing that can be against ToS, which means D2ing someone will never be against ToS unless they specify it so.

In normal situations, what i did would be considered in bad taste. But theres a big difference in killing an innocent over killing a criminal, is there not? Both can be considered /wrong/ as no one deserves death, but one of them probably brought more good than harm. And in this case its not even about death, its about a group of dumbasses who lost 10 mins of their lives coming back to the point from where they were warped of.

In resume: You plot a course of action that can be considered in bad taste depending on the circumstances. No matter what your intent is, you cannot be judged until you carry it out. The thing is, your plan is not against the law, see what i mean? Had i plotted to MPK, carrying the plan out would be an infraction, because its stated that MPK is against ToS.

Sweeping generalizations aren't a good defense.

I dont consider that a defensive statement, what i said was that someone who doesnt look to their heart and judgement to carry out their life is someone who is empty and void of emotion, but this is quite far from the point i want to make: that sometimes you have to bend the reality around you. The thing with fooling someone puts me in a position where people think im an ass, but not in the position of being banned for it. The thing is... i could care less what others think. Though i like to state my reasons.

Again, just because someone shuns you does not mean they approve of RMT. IMO, you both broke the ToS, and you both get what you deserve when you find your accounts banned/suspended.

It's not because someone shuns me, its because they say that in a certain angle, gilsellers are ok and welcome, which i cant wrap my head around.

[Raydeus]

Re: Crusader for justice

Ok, the thing is there's nothing wrong with playing a character 24/7, as long as those gil sellers create their gil using the in-game mechanics they aren't doing anything wrong.

What is wrong is when people MPK other players or use 3rd party programs to make claims or to create gil and items using hacks, the act of selling gil is against the TOS too.

So, even though people feel this players have an advantage because they can make a character work 24/7 that doesn't mean you have the right to do some "twisted justice".

I can only play 3 hours a day on weekdays, I've seen many players who are at school who can play 12 hours straight right now, should I start mpk them because their characters are logged for so long? Or should I just acuse em of being gil sellers because they can play longer than me?

So...

-Unless you have proof about the actual trade of game currency for real money, unless you can prove the transactions took place.

-Unless you can prove people is creating the gil using hacks.

-Unless you can prove someone is using third party software to make claims or have an advantage over other players.

Unless you can do any of that you should leave justice to SE, just report everything wrong you see, and hope they get rid of most gilsellers. But more important than anything is to try to convince gilbuyers to stop giving money to gilsellers, that's the only real way to stop them.

Does it seem like too much work? Well that's how real justice works, thats the kind of thing that will actually change things, and its hard work.

If things in this world could be fixed with a torch and a bunch of townspeople shouting "witch! witch!" this world would be very different place indeed...

[Bishop]

Re: Crusader for justice

Ok, the thing is there's nothing wrong with playing a character 24/7, as long as those gil sellers create their gil using the in-game mechanics they aren't doing anything wrong.

What is wrong is when people MPK other players or use 3rd party programs to make claims or to create gil and items using hacks, the act of selling gil is against the TOS too.

So, even though people feel this players have an advantage because they can make a character work 24/7 that doesn't mean you have the right to do some "twisted justice".

So...

-Unless you have proof about the actual trade of game currency for real money, unless you can prove the transactions took place.

-Unless you can prove people is creating the gil using hacks.

-Unless you can prove someone is using third party software to make claims or have an advantage over other players.

I'm not complaining that just because their character is online 24/7, they should be banned. Because someone is taking shifts on this character 24/7 only supports the fact that he is a gilseller. You must understand that when they claim Cassie, it's not a cassie earring to them, it's probably their dinner. These people aren't just individuals. They're groups, maybe even a small business working together to sell gil.

It's really no secret these gilsellers will use third party softwares to claim NMs. When winning = dinner, you'd do anything to win your claim. And they did used to use unfair tactics that finally forced SE to take some action against them. For example during the cassie fight, they would use poison potions on themselves to prevent sleep, while casting poisona on the people fighting cassie so they get slept, thus loosing claim. And SE did nothing about that until the recent /blockaid.

[Ziero]

Re: Crusader for justice

Indeed, but i just dont consider myself a vigilante simply because i dont go out looking for them, but if they cross my way and theres something i can do, i will. Thats not vigilance, thats taking advantage of whats at my disposal to get rid of something that hinders me, im not trying to enforce law, even if my actions are clearly against things that are considered ilegal, but the reason is because it hinders me down and not because of a ToS.

1) Where in that definition did it say you had to go hunt them to be a Vigilante? Seriously, it's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. When you take the law into your own hand it is Vigilantism. It does not matter what you 'consider' yourself, it's a cut and dry definition.

2) If you say 'I will kill you' that can be cause for your arrest. If you say 'I will MPK you' GMs can take action against that. Inviting then D2ing someone CAN fall under the anti harrassment clause in the ToS, especially if you go around saying 'Screw U' and all that crap. Gms prolly won't *do* anything besides tell you to blist and ignore that person, because that's all you really should do anyway, but it's still against the ToS in a sense.

3) I haven't seen one person say gil sellers are welcomed. Though I have seen people say there are FAR worse then people who sell gil. MPKers, theives(not the job), botters and hackers, kill stealers, blatent harrassers and hell even gil buyers cause more problems then gil sellers. It's just that some(if not most) sellers use those tactics and more that causes all the hate for them. If Sellers didn't MPK and bot I gaurentee no one would even notice 90% of them. If you're going to hate them, hate them for the right reasons. And screwing up the economy, which they do, is the least reason to hate them.

[Bishop]

Re: Crusader for justice

-Unless you have proof about the actual trade of game currency for real money, unless you can prove the transactions took place.

You know what, if it was this simple, life would be easier. I would take the 13 dollars and whatever cent to buy 1m and whoever sends it to me would get banned? I mean, he did send me the 1m that I bought. Is that proof enough that he's a gil seller? Repeat and rinse 10 times, and you can ban 10 people?

[Ziero]

Re: Crusader for justice

I thought poisona was party members only?

[Raydeus]

Re: Crusader for justice

It's really no secret these gilsellers will use third party softwares to claim NMs. When winning = dinner, you'd do anything to win your claim. And they did used to use unfair tactics that finally forced SE to take some action against them. For example during the cassie fight, they would use poison potions on themselves to prevent sleep, while casting poisona on the people fighting cassie so they get slept, thus loosing claim. And SE did nothing about that until the recent /blockaid.

What gilsellers are doing is wrong no matter their reasons, being poor isn't an excuse or a free pass to do something wrong.

Let's make this clear, I hate what gilsellers have done to the game, whatever their reasons for selling gil are they mean nothing to me.


My point is that we players don't have the means to judge who is what, just going around doing vigilante crap based on assumptions and lack of information is just plain stupid. People might asume they are using 3rd party software, but unless you are able to actually check the game's system to back up your suspicions then you have nothing.

What you can do is report them and let SE judge who is using what.

[Bishop]

Re: Crusader for justice

I thought poisona was party members only?

I believe any -na spell can be used ouside of party.

[Ziero]

Re: Crusader for justice

I must be thinking of ballista circumstances then, thanks for the clarification

Also, somewhat related:

I was hunting Doppler Dio one night as a Thf/rng. My Ws was large enough to see the entire area from the center of the room without me moving and I knew the exact time between repops for the place holders so I just /sat right in the middle only getting up when a PH or NM popped. Someone else who was there, a noob War/nin no higher then 30, was running back and forth camping these NMs as well. Apparently, seeing as I got every pop and claim without running around guessing where they were, he decided I was a botter and GS and said he was going to call a GM on me.

Never heard from a GM, but I did get my Scythe (~.^)b

...come to think of it I should do that again sometime. The other items there sell for some nice change and it's real easy work too >.>

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

Good to see you guys aren't afraid to call every little thing harassment then die by the opinion that it's a terrible thing. Warping somebody who doesn't want it isn't harassment. Even repeatedly warping somebody who didn't want it would barely border on harassment, because if you didn't want it then you wouldn't invite them.

All's fair under the GM's blind watch; trying to be the bigger man here will only make it harder for you.

[Ziero]

Re: Crusader for justice

No, it's not 'alls fair'

There are rules, just because the GMs can't keep up with the people who break them doesn't mean they should be ignored by everyone.

- Engaging in fraudulent acts within the game
Fraudulent acts, such as deliberately breaking a promise, deceiving other players, or concluding an exchange unfairly can destroy trust between players and inhibit the growth of the in-game community. Such acts are, therefore, strictly prohibited.
Players found engaging in such acts will be penalized in accordance with the PlayOnline Member Agreement. In addition, all records of those players in question will be thoroughly reviewed, and all items and gil obtained through such acts will be confiscated.
- Harassment by MPK, shadowing, etc.
MPK (inducing monsters to attack other characters), unilateral shadowing, continually sending messages or items to the recipient, or deliberately obstructing other players is strictly prohibited.
- Engaging in actions that disrupt other players
While play styles in FINAL FANTASY XI may differ amongst players, any behavior that markedly disrupts other players is prohibited. When such behavior is observed, a game master may order you to discontinue such behavior.
When this happens, please promptly obey these orders. The following are examples of such behavior.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news5030.shtml

That is a direct quote from the revised ToS, many of those things occur when you trick someone into your PT then d2 them. As minor as it may be, it's still against the rules to do so and intentionally disrupts another person's play. Why is it ok to do that to a gil seller, who isn't botting or MPKing, and not ok to do it to a 'legite' player, because that does happen.

Hate them because they bot, MPK, lie, cheat and steal, not because you 'think' they sell gil. And hate ALL who bot, MPK, lie cheat and steal and not just the ones who you 'think' sell gil. When SE created this game, they thought players would follow the rules *willingly* and didn't expect so many people to wantonly ignore their order. ALL players who intentionally disrupt other players should be hated as equally as gil sellers because they're ruining this game just as much.

[DakAttack]

Re: Crusader for justice

No, it's not 'alls fair'

Yes, all is fair. It's ok if you want to do nothing but stand in a camp for hours until the RMT claims whatever it is you thought you could claim. I guess the real prize is that warm feeling you get when you 'take the high road'. I'm sure it helps you sleep at night.

That is a direct quote from the revised ToS, many of those things occur when you trick someone into your PT then d2 them. As minor as it may be, it's still against the rules to do so and intentionally disrupts another person's play. Why is it ok to do that to a gil seller, who isn't botting or MPKing, and not ok to do it to a 'legite' player, because that does happen.

Hate them because they bot, MPK, lie, cheat and steal, not because you 'think' they sell gil. And hate ALL who bot, MPK, lie cheat and steal and not just the ones who you 'think' sell gil.

Those are for serious offenses. It's like the FBI going after somebody who stole an FFXI account, or a police officer pulling somebody over because they didn't use their turn signal, it's just not going to happen. The only reason such rules exist is for authority figures to have even the smallest reason to file a complaint with somebody who they might think is doing something much more serious, but can't prove it at the time.

[Matera]

Re: Crusader for justice

Two wrongs don't make a right, eye for an eye and the world would be blind, etc...

All that is bullshit.

Do you expect people to lie down and get fucked over? Yes, I do, actually, because people can be pussies like that. I'm not getting fucked myself. I'm going to do whatever I can to prevent RMT from obtaining a complete stranglehold on my server's economy again. I don't buy gil, so I shouldn't have to put up with the adverse effects of what happens when others buy gil. YOU GUYS SHOULDN'T EITHER.

Just fight fire with fire. I won't care if I get suspended or banned, I'll know what I did was right, and that >99% of the rest of you just want to sit down and act like it's not big deal.

If a group of people isn't doing something about another group of people that are doing something bad, then it's up to somebody else, because guess where everybody in the whole world would be if they just lied down and took it?

That's right, it'd be really fucking retarded, like Hitler's Nazi World, or the Spanish would rule the world or something.

Sure, it's "just a game", but it's my game, that I pay for, that I have a right to be in, just like I have a right to be on this planet.

Keep in mind it's the GM's/Dev Team's job to keep RMT COMPLETELY in check, and what do they do?

"Oh, we'll, uh, limit deliveries of money!"

Yeah, that's going to stop a gilselling conglomerate.

If you can prevent RMT from claiming that NM, mining in Gusgen, or anything of that sort, a gold star goes to you.

For the gilseller characters:

In war, people shoot people because of opposing views.

Here, RMT fucks around with us, and only a few people do things about it.

As far as I'm concerned, there should be a fucking war against RMT. Everybody, follow around an RMT and make their fucking life hell, please. If not for yourself, your game, or your own fun, then do it for your fellow comrades.