Crusader for justice

[Balfree]

Re: Crusader for justice

Silly pictures for the win though.

And im not just talking about you... but i'd rather refrain from pointing out names and stuff. All i know is the discussion is slowly derailing into personal grudges and if i can stab in some silliness instead of sounding all authoritary (damn my vocabulary, is that a word?) then maybe thats just what ill do. I do want people to post, but unless its relevant id rather not perpetuate a thread, right? All i can see is someone saying something then someone attacking that someone and then theres pages of these 2 people exchanging blows and having to defend themselves, i dont know about you but it really hate it ><

[Murphie]

Re: Crusader for justice

Silly pictures for the win though.

And im not just talking about you... but i'd rather refrain from pointing out names and stuff. All i know is the discussion is slowly derailing into personal grudges and if i can stab in some silliness instead of sounding all authoritary (damn my vocabulary, is that a word?) then maybe thats just what ill do. I do want people to post, but unless its relevant id rather not perpetuate a thread, right? All i can see is someone saying something then someone attacking that someone and then theres pages of these 2 people exchanging blows and having to defend themselves, i dont know about you but it really hate it ><

The unfortunate thing is that any thread on this topic is going to eventually degrade into personal grudges and name calling. I wish it could be avoided, but I'm not sure how to achieve that. Except by removing myself, which I plan to do.

The word you're looking for is "authoritative", but authoritary has a certain ring to it. I definitely see your point about injecting some silliness, but I'm left wondering if that is the last resort, if a thread hasn't perhaps run it's course. That's not really my call to make though. On the other hand, this topic is clearly a hot one right now (a search for RMT brings us scads of results), so clearly it needs to be discussed by folks.

Recently on the FFXI Livejournal Community a moderator posted a ban on all RMT postings. It didn't go over well (and really the full effect of that post has yet to be seen), which I'm not surprised by, becuase telling people that they just can't post about something in a (somewhat) public forum never goes over well.

Anyway, yeah. RMT (and posts about them) are here to stay, so I guess we'll be dealing with discussion like this for many weeks to come.

[Telal]

Re: Crusader for justice

All I can say to this thread, and it has been said, you can't feel pervertedly just by breaking the rules to punish someone who breaks the rules.

I'm not appathetic, or not interested ,i'm Realistic.

Lets say you do it the right way, you gather all kinds of hard proof, you can prove without a doubt, no holes to jump through and escape, that persons X,Y, and Z are gilsellers.

you contact a GM and get them involved, as you should.
They investigate, look over your proof, and do what is appropriate, and ban/delete the gilseller account.

What have you done in the war against Gilsellers?

Absolutely nothing

They are just going to go into the back room, pick up an unused box of FFXI, create new accounts with the ID Numbers, and powerlevel this new gilselling machine with all the accounts you didn't catch.

The only thing you can do is educate the masses that buying gil is bad, and hope that SE finds a way to handle the problem.

There is nothing a player can actually do to stop the problem.

If you break the rules to get your justice and get caught, I have no pity for you, because you broke the rules.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Crusader for justice

It wasn't an insult. If you find "sorry you had to throw that out there" insulting, than I'm not sure what to tell you.

I was referring to this comment actually:

But hey, way to show your desperation by tossing that one out.

Which, I found more condescending than insulting to be honest.

Calling my (current) levels out seems to be the last ditch effort on the part of people who don't have any valid points to make, but unfortunately, it's not a valid point.

Again, as I already tried explaining to you, my suggestion was based on the fact using the information shown in your sig that levelling and experiencing all aspects of RMT activities would be a good idea as you frankly can't comment first hand on anything beyond your current level. After 75 levels of RMT frustration from NM stealing to trigger mob monopoly and everything in between most normal players have built up a healthy loathing of RMT and while taking actions like those mentioned in this thread are indeed against the ToS I can understand and sympathise with fellow players occasionally losing their composure.

Even if I hadn't been playing FFXI for as long as I have, RMT is not unique to this game. Every MMO suffers from it, and I've played my fair share of them as well.

Actually, this is only true to a certain extent. I played EQ for 4 years and have played WoW for a year and whilst both games have RMT their impact on those games is nowhere near as damaging as the effect on FFXI. I already pointed this out earlier in the thread.

Balfree, apologies if you think I'm going off on one here but I believe my point is valid and in context with the OP. People who haven't experienced all aspects of FFXI across all the level ranges can't fully understand the frustration and anger caused by RMT's restrictive practices in FFXI and the seemingly miniscule preventitive measures imposed by S-E. I still don't condone the actions of the OP but I can understand how people feel it's their last recourse.

[Telal]

Re: Crusader for justice

I don't know what EQ you played, but right before PoP launched, RMT destroyed Sullen Zek as well as Mithanel Marr's economy, in the manner of days, due to a bug in a patch, things that were selling for 1k plat were now selling for 10m plat.

And explain to me how blue items on the auction house for 1k gold isn't caused by inflation due to rmt?

I mean, if you can prove that, then there is no problem with this economy either, and it is only the AH sellers driving up their price due to their own greed?

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Crusader for justice

I honestly must have been lucky with my servers. I was on Drinal until a little after the OoW launch and never once encountered issues with RMT affecting my gameplay although most of the zones I exp'd or raided in were closed pretty much to RMT as they lacked the numbers or the skill to get into zones like VT, the Elemental planes, and Time. Granted, in all the high level zones the decent items were all the equivalent of Rare/Ex.

As for WoW, I'm on Aggramar, a Euro server and prices have remained much the same on that server since its inception or so I've been informed by players who were around at that time.

[Kailea]

Re: Crusader for justice

All I can say to this thread, and it has been said, you can't feel pervertedly just by breaking the rules to punish someone who breaks the rules.

I'm not appathetic, or not interested ,i'm Realistic.

Lets say you do it the right way, you gather all kinds of hard proof, you can prove without a doubt, no holes to jump through and escape, that persons X,Y, and Z are gilsellers.

you contact a GM and get them involved, as you should.
They investigate, look over your proof, and do what is appropriate, and ban/delete the gilseller account.

What have you done in the war against Gilsellers?

Absolutely nothing

They are just going to go into the back room, pick up an unused box of FFXI, create new accounts with the ID Numbers, and powerlevel this new gilselling machine with all the accounts you didn't catch.

The only thing you can do is educate the masses that buying gil is bad, and hope that SE finds a way to handle the problem.

There is nothing a player can actually do to stop the problem.

If you break the rules to get your justice and get caught, I have no pity for you, because you broke the rules.

I agree wuth you full :p

also just to note, one MORPG I liked to play that did not have RMT at all, is PSO (or should I say PSOBB) ^.^

[Ryddr]

Re: Crusader for justice

Erm...some people have previously posted that not all RMT should be treated the same way. I was just wondering if they would care to elaborate and tell us what sort of RMT action they could possibly take part in with less repercussion.

I think that RMTing is the same from all angles. Gilbuyers and Gilsellers are the same to me and deserve the same treatment. If you're considering the fact that gilsellers are nice people in RL...who cares? That has nothing to do with what they doing in game. As a matter of fact, what they do in game completely contradicts what they say they're like in RL. Nice gilseller = oxymoron. /sigh Yet for some reason a large sum of players are quick to jump the GS defense and actually refer to GS as players. Now that's sad.

[avhmia]

Re: Crusader for justice

Kailea is making a valid point, although badly. The fact is, if you participate in RMT (buying or selling), bot, hack, MPK, scam, or harrass, you are breaking the rules. I don't care who the victim is, if I see it happen, you better believe I'm calling a GM on it. The only justice deserved by anyone that takes part in those kinds of activities is a swift and permanent ban.

If you can't play by the rules, then please do us all a favor and quit.

[Telal]

Re: Crusader for justice

Ryddr you can't lump gil sellers into you vat of evil and call it a day.

I would say that a good portion of the people who buy gil dont' realise it's wrong, and have no idea that they are the "Reason" the prices are so high on the AH to begin with. They buy the gil to buy the items in game they want. They do no understand that they can't afford the items because the buy gil. (I need to stop posting right after i wake up )

And gil sellers can be nice people, your generalization makes me sad in side. it would be like me who isn't a fan of "end game raiding" saying "all dynamis LS are full of cockyjerks", which isn't true and we know it.

My only point is this:

Some in this thread think I'm as bad as gil sellers because I don't do "waht i can" to "punish" them, because i play by the rules.

Yet I feel they are just as bad as the gil sellers because they openly break the rules but don't care that they break them because in their head, they are "right".


BTW, suicide bombers think what they are doing is "right" too.

[avhmia]

Re: Crusader for justice

And gil sellers can be nice people, your generalization makes me sad in side. it would be like me who isn't a fan of "end game raiding" saying "all dynamis LS are full of cockyjerks", which isn't true and we know it.

Some in this thread think I'm as bad as gil sellers because I don't do "waht i can" to "punish" them, because i play by the rules.

Yet I feel they are just as bad as the gil sellers because they openly break the rules but don't care that they break them because in their head, they are "right".


BTW, suicide bombers think what they are doing is "right" too.

You make some very cogent points, Telal (ubernewb ftw! ). The fact is, people have an overwhelming tendency to justify all their own negative deeds. Breaking the ToS is just plain wrong, and it doesn't matter that the person doing the wrong thinks they are doing right.

We all agree to conform to a standard of conduct. Just because we see other get away with breaking that agreement does not give us license to break it ourselves. Most of the limited interactions I've had with gillies have been positive-- I've had an elemental pulled off of me in Kuftal, and I've been raised twice. The very few, brief conversations I've had with those people have been pleasant. These people aren't monsters-- they're just normal people operating under their own twisted view of what's right and wrong. I venture they're little different from the people that make sport of MPKing them whenever they can.

I remember one time I was killing stropers once when back when Stroper Chyme was camped constantly. I'd been down there on and off for weeks hunting keys for RSE, so I guess they were used to my presence. One of them sent me a tell asking if I'd like his malboro vines because he had too many. I said, "I'm sorry, but I don't want anything from you." He sent me back a sad face, and then a minute later "no1 likes job ; ;." After that he would occasionally send me a /tell asking if I wanted help with my RSE key and stuff like that. I mostly ignored him. Once I even said "I won't play with you. You are breaking the rules so we can't be friends." The sad thing is, he seemed sincerely nice and we probably could have been friends if he wasn't involved in such a nasty occupation.

I simply refuse to waste my time on people that can't play fair, no matter how that manifests itself.

[Matera]

Re: Crusader for justice

Personally, I deal with RMT not because I think I'll scare them away, but because it makes me feel better.

[Ryddr]

Re: Crusader for justice

Some in this thread think I'm as bad as gil sellers because I don't do "waht i can" to "punish" them, because i play by the rules.

Yet I feel they are just as bad as the gil sellers because they openly break the rules but don't care that they break them because in their head, they are "right"

Hey, no one says it's necessary to work against GSing. Inactivity is natural, but a public list that merely labels people as what they are and goes on to give the reader the option of how to utilize the list? Not rule breaking.

Gilbuyers are stupid...lol...I'm not sure how small their brains must be to allow them to think (basically) this:

(( Hm...hey, I think I'll go spend my parents hard earned moneys on some gilz ))

and if someone plans on saying that they're not all children...the adult Gilbuyers are even more stupid. The parents who allow their children to purchase fake money for real money are....probably misinformed. I doubt anyone who doesn't play would even consider that sort of trade-off. Real money...fake money...tough decision.

would say that a good portion of the people who buy gil dont' realise it's wrong, and have no idea that they are the "Reason" the prices are so high on the AH to begin with. They buy the gil to buy the items in game they want. They do no understand that they can't afford the items because the buy gil......And gil sellers can be nice people, your generalization makes me sad in side. it would be like me who isn't a fan of "end game raiding" saying "all dynamis LS are full of cockyjerks", which isn't true and we know it"

Sure, perhaps not all gilbuyers belong in the same category as gilsellers, but I still stand behind all gilsellers being "lumped" together. Also, I didn't say a gilseller couldn't be nice in RL. I meant that it's irrelavent what kind of person they are in RL because the medium through which they present themself is not RL. They slowly ruin the game from within the game and the RL aspect only determines how friendly their in-game chat is at best. Their actions in-game are not nice.

[Telal]

Re: Crusader for justice

Please don't get me wrong Ryddr, I'm not trying to defend gilsellers. I dislike rmt greatly, and disagree with it. Part me of me, maybe because i grew up (5th grade to junior in highschool) in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, feels sorry for some full time RMT people.

To imagine living in a country where the economy is so bad, that your only source of income is the $4-5 per day they get paid to farm in a video game. *sniff* It effects us, true, but some of these people have to do these jobs to feed their family and a little human compassion goes along way.

I hate the job they are doing, but understand why they do the job.

As far as being nice people, I've read several places where RMT will invite people into PT's to let them lot on an item, this is something they don't technically have to do, but they do, letting that one person get their gear with their help, actuallys pushes to have the community accept them more because they help the little guy (or what not). Has nothing to do with who they are in RL. I'm very nice to everyone in game, all the time, but my family and co-workers will tell you that is NOT who I am RL.

[Murphie]

Re: Crusader for justice

Which, I found more condescending than insulting to be honest.

Well, you said "insulting" first, which is why I was led to believe that you found it insulting. So, please pick next time.

Again, as I already tried explaining to you, my suggestion was based on the fact using the information shown in your sig that levelling and experiencing all aspects of RMT activities would be a good idea as you frankly can't comment first hand on anything beyond your current level. After 75 levels of RMT frustration from NM stealing to trigger mob monopoly and everything in between most normal players have built up a healthy loathing of RMT and while taking actions like those mentioned in this thread are indeed against the ToS I can understand and sympathise with fellow players occasionally losing their composure.

I have a very healthy loathing of RMT. The difference between you and I is that I know what I do and don't have the power to change. I am not a fan of RMT. I'm not a fan of the buyers, and I'm not a fan of the sellers. However, this game is merely a hobby for me. I play it for fun. I don't intentionally work myself into a righteous frenzy about something that I can't possibly change as a mere player. I won't MPK, randomly D2, or generally abuse RMT players, because that doesn't do anything expect make the instigator feel better. And that's just a waste of time. However! I will report suspicious behavior to GMs every time I see it happen. That is the limit of my ability to affect RMT. For those that don't understand that that is their limit as well, my condolences. I hope you enjoy your needless stress.

Actually, this is only true to a certain extent. I played EQ for 4 years and have played WoW for a year and whilst both games have RMT their impact on those games is nowhere near as damaging as the effect on FFXI. I already pointed this out earlier in the thread.

From what I've seen, FFXI isn't any more negatively affected than any other MMO. A small but vocal minority would like folks to believe so, however.