Blacklist drama

[M_X]

Re: Blacklist drama

For public Blist threads, it mostly comes down to the original poster's side of the story. Then you'll normaly have the other person (or his/her friends) post the other side. It's then up to the readers' to decide where they stand. All replies are opinions and should be respected.

Then again, I think proof of the said crime makes for a more solid arguement. Even personal experiences can rationalize opinion more into fact.

Point in case, I once posted how a group of people in my LS did some BCNMs and one member decided to keep all his drops for himself after the group had decided (on our forums) to sell and split evenly. I didn't tell people a blist the guy, I just repeated what I had been told and merely cautioned people about a possible thief.

My thread of course drew the thief's friends to reply, claimig that "he wouldn't do anything like that". I accepted that. They were defending their friend. They also did not know the victims.

This was a perfect case of 2 sides of a situation posting based on what they knew and letting the reader make up their own mind.

...

That was until about 3 months later during a huge +10 hour maintance. The thief came into my LS's forum. We called him out about the theft and the guy confessed to stealing the items because "I don't have money and needed the item".

Now, evidence (or in this case a confession) turned a opinion into fact.

[Ellipses]

Re: Blacklist drama

As with any forum post on any topic, the devil is in the details.

A post that is a flat list of names, without individualized evidence or justification for inclusion hangs solely on the reputation of the poster. Using such a list in any fashion without having personal experience with the poster or the names on it is foolish to say the least. The best one can do with such a list is use it as one facet of their decision-making process regarding who to avoid. And I believe that is what most worthwhile people do. Anyone so easily-influenced that they avoid any given player because of such a list, without any personal context on the situation, has much bigger problems than the size of their blacklist.

However, blacklist threads can be quite useful given enough personal context. If a name appears on one, and is never discussed within that thread again, it's easily forgotten. Most people would only remember "Oh, that guy" after having some experience of their own with the player in question. If a name appears, and then discussion about that player ensues, a bit of context can be established. Do more people agree that the player is a ne'er-do-well, or do more people defend their credibility? How do both sides argue ("lol ur mom, im 1337 and ur just jelus" vs. "I think you misunderstood my intentions, but I was just having a bad day, and apologize")? Are you familiar with any of the parties involved?

At the end of the day, it's no more or less a part of the decision-making process than any other bit of information. People would (and do) complain about other players regardless; blacklist threads just tend to collect those complaints in one place.

An analogy!

Let's say we're dear friends (we are dear friends, aren't we?), and one day a forum discussion arises about the care and feeding of rabbits. As forum discussions do, it gets sidetracked into a discussion aobut grocery stores. I make a post warning everyone not to shop at Amazing-Mart, and tell a story about my awful experience with them, complete with details about the expired peas, incorrectly priced paper towels, the cashier who was clearly under the influence of illicit substances, and the management's poor handling of the situation. Several other people chime in, sharing both good and bad experiences with the Amazing-Marts in their respective towns, for nearly a page and a half, until someone spoils all the fun with a question about the care and feeding of rabbits.

You would, as humans who read forums are wont to do, use these stories to evaluate your own experiences with Amazing-Mart. As you are an intelligent individual, you would not immediately boycott Amazing-Mart based solely on my proclamation that they are "god damn reprobates" (I can be a little cranky, after all).

Stemming from this scintillating forum conversation, someone you have never heard of posts a list of stores to avoid. Most of them, he offers no reasoning on, though a few include such informative statements as "parking lot wtf?" Again, discussion ensues, with people insulting or praising the various establishments listed. Some of them even worked for MassiveCo for a summer twelve years ago and know everything about the place. Some of the stores on the list, however, never get discussed beyond their inclusion on the list.

Once again, as you are intelligent, you use what's presented to add to the information you've gathered through your own experiences.

Note that very few people would complain about the first situation at all, even if the analogy were lifted and the shocking truth were revealed that we were talking about a player on FFXI and not Amazing-Mart. It is functionally equivalent to the second situation. In both cases, it's additional information and only additional information.

Of course, there are people who would take one person's word on something, lacking any personal context or experience with the subject at hand, and not knowing for sure the person providing the information is the slightest bit authoritative, without question. If I ever meet such a person, I have many, many bridges to sell them.

My only real issue with the existence of such threads is their maintenance and upkeep. While it's probably not a terribly common occurence, it's quite conceivable that a player who appears in a blacklist thread would quit or otherwhise lose their character, and a new player would take over the name. It would be easy to spot the difference in many cases, but if such lists aren't maintained with up-to-date information, it could quite easily cause legitimate players undue stress.

[Macht]

Re: Blacklist drama

Lol, funny that Poof has so much fame in Fairy that she gets refferenced here too. To make it even easier to point out.

We created this to get to the GENERAL topic of public blacklists. Refrain from discussion of "The List" as Taskmage has already said earlier, the complaints about it are well documented we see it and get it. We discuss a lot about in the Mod Lounges.

As this thread is showing some are in support of public blacklists but they just don't like how "The List" is handling it. They didn't have to start refferencing "The List" to make this point.

We wanted to leave the topic open for people to discuss but get away from "The List" as refference, because the community couldn't help but attack eachother instead of debate the subject. We preffer that the subject be debated and not people taking pot shots at eachother.

[Mhurron]

Re: Blacklist drama

Assuming there is an implicit attempt to impose decisions on others in such a blacklist, there is no force they can use to compel you in that regard. Such a list has no power other than what you consent to give it. You can choose to ignore it or not.

In a game where you must rely on others to do what you want to do, community ostracism is a huge weapon to wield.

[Ryddr]

Re: Blacklist drama

This is becoming redundant.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Blacklist drama

I could've sworn this wasn't KI.

[Ryddr]

Re: Blacklist drama

Ha...KI...

This debate could go on forever. We started with an actual "blacklist" and the ethics behind it, moved on to the effect it has on 'innocent' people, continued into a discussion of the OPs personality for some reason.....then began a flame war with hidden offenses (some were blatant). Now we've broadened the scope of the entire discussion, but can no longer incorporate detail into our posts. Without detail, the points made can't directly relate to any particular thing (list), but the relation has to be inferred. We're better off not making any more points at all than beating around the bush with statements that may or may not be interpreted correctly.

Anyway, to make my post valid and not entirely off-topic ~,~ I shall add that the effect of a blacklist cannot be determined before it's been utilized. Whether it's positive or negative is nearly impossible to tell. Of course, someone will say that it can't possibly be 100% correct, but in a game it's easier to read people actions/intentions than in real life because everyone is limited to the same number of actions (aside from bots n' such). Therefore, comparing a real life blacklist to an in-game blacklist isn't even a parallel observation. Looking into the past for the answers will not work either because the comparison is entirely irrelavent. Personally, I would allow a blacklist to continue until the effects can be seen and calculated. If there are any negative effects, besides those who protest its existance beforehand, then it shouldn't exist. If the effects are purely beneficial then let it be.

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Blacklist drama

I haven't read this entire thread, and as such I fully dont' expect anyone to reply to my comment, but for some reason I feel the impetus to throw my opinion in here.

My blacklist is empty.

Well, not quite, there is a solitary name on it, but that name is there because this person honestly cannot inhale and exhale again without assistance. before I blacklisted them, I would get a /tell every 30 seconds asking if I could come help them with something. Missions, quest, crafting, leveling, advice, it ranged the gamut.

I dont' hate this person. Infact I was rather flattered by the fact that they considered me the end-all knowledge of game information. But I just can't stand such a deluge. And flattery from someone who can't think for themselves is no flattery at all. I blacklisted them for my sanity and for their growth. (Although apparently they haven't grown, because I un-blacklisted them a month ago and next thing I knew I got a tell asking for help).

Do I know any midgardsormer gilsellers?

Let's see. There used to be Shadk, Secre, Wond, Abinfen, Bbinfen, Babydollsomethingororther, Dress, heck I used to be able to rattle off the Gusgen gilsellers like a kindergardner reciting the alphabet.

I didn't blacklist them. I didn't see a reason to. I never interacted with them. Maybe an /angry when they kyped my point. Honestly, what difference does it make if they're blacklisted or not?

There are people who hate me. People who have ME blacklisted...a lot...because I hang out with Paladin Dale. People who blacklisted me because I had to go to bed and couldn't find a replacement. (let me go call up some random person and hope they have a whitemage/redmage/summoner the right level and are willing to get online and into your crappy party, uh huh...)

Does it matter if I blacklist them back or not? Not really. If they blacklisted me, they won't invite me again anyway. If they didnt, and I get an invite back, and the party doesn't go well, it's not the end of the world.

I have considered blacklisting someone who has been extensively harassing me lately, but I find that his antics are more entertaining than annoying. He will follow me, check me, and announce my title to the linkshell. *ish kinda proud of being a Cloud Breaker anyway*

Bottom line, I get over it, you can tell me that so-and-so is a gilseller and I will look you in the eye and say "And I don't buy gil, so why should I care?" I don't. A list of gilsellers is just advertisement of their wares to people who WILL buy gil when they have a supplier.

Same thing if you say that so-and-so is an asshole. I will look you in the eye and say "So what's your point?" A lot of people say I'm a bitch, and they would be right. I definitely have bitchy moments, days, months. Blacklist me if you want. There's how many other people on Midgardsormer for me to talk to? Including that person you think is an asshole.

You know what, maybe he had a bad day. Or maybe he's a terminal jerkface. Either way, I have enough intelligence to figure it out for my own.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Blacklist drama

Ah yes a blacklist. Something that has potential for good, or bad depending on who's hands it is in.

A blacklist can protect us, and others in this game from people we all think are scum (IE:RMT, Theifs(the people who take all the items for themselves not the job), and people who are rude, and harrass others.)

Or it can hurt innocents. And or condone actions that are bad.

But yet when it comes to a published blacklist it really comes down to what sort of people add to the blacklist. For all we know they could just have a grudge against another, and fabricate the proof. Or they truely could have been harmed by that person.

The other factor in a blacklist's success is who monitors and edits it. And what their own ways of accomplishing thir goals are.

I am a true beliver in, You choose who you meet, and play with in this game.Because a person someone else does not like, you could like yourself. Thats why there is a personal /blist in this game (So far only 2 for me).

But I do belive that in the right hands, and a person who has the right motives, and ways of acting, could better the community through a published blacklist. (Though there are better ways than a published blacklist, to better a commmunty).

[Macht]

Re: Blacklist drama

Ha...KI...

This debate could go on forever. We started with an actual "blacklist" and the ethics behind it, moved on to the effect it has on 'innocent' people, continued into a discussion of the OPs personality for some reason.....then began a flame war with hidden offenses (some were blatant). Now we've broadened the scope of the entire discussion, but can no longer incorporate detail into our posts. Without detail, the points made can't directly relate to any particular thing (list), but the relation has to be inferred. We're better off not making any more points at all than beating around the bush with statements that may or may not be interpreted correctly.

Yes, well given the situation here we are working first mostly on getting constructive debate. None of this mudslinging political crap attacking eachother instead of presenting strong points about the subject. In a sort of essence you could say we the mods are looking for the valid strong points to give just reason of such a list ever existing or enforce them with the same nazi like attitude we do with spamming.

The thread closed before was not providing strong points and just kept turning more and more to attacking eachother. We see the discussion to be valid to keep but are seeking to try and reduce the repetition and be more constructive, but it seems some people are just completly incapable of reading to comprehend this which is just making our goal harder to obtain.

The points you made about the blacklist were nice and basically exactly what's being looked for.

[Yuanlung]

Re: Blacklist drama

my 0.02gil...


A public hate list often creates a lot of resentment. Not just between the list supporters and the listed, but also the list supporter, and the critics and apathetic. This gets especially bad if the maintainers decide to hold a 'if you are not with us, you are against us' stance.

[Lyceius]

Re: Blacklist drama

People have a hard time as do I making opinons about a issue without using a example. Hence why the "List-that-must-no-be-named" (hee hee harry potter humor) Will always come up in confersation in this thread.

[Macht]

Re: Blacklist drama

My stance is it's tough. We create blacklists in RL on a multitude of different ways. Some are actually with intent to help (Ex: familywatchdog.com, Hotel Score Rating, Resturant Rating, Tourist's List of Best Tourism Spots, Suddan Heusein and Generals List, America's Most Wanted, etc...) then you got ones that are completly no good (Ex: Company Blacklists of Employee's, etc... that's only one I can think of at the moment).

We even do blacklists to which are deeply embedded within a set soceity, if a member of the soceity does something wrong they could be exiled from that soceity or punished in some manner to try and get that person to do as soceity expects of him.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Blacklist drama

my 0.02gil...


A public hate list often creates a lot of resentment. Not just between the list supporters and the listed, but also the list supporter, and the critics and apathetic. This gets especially bad if the maintainers decide to hold a 'if you are not with us, you are against us' stance.

It gets equally bad when the opposing side acts in the same matter.

[Yuanlung]

Re: Blacklist drama

My stance is it's tough. We create blacklists in RL on a multitude of different ways. Some are actually with intent to help (Ex: familywatchdog.com, Hotel Score Rating, Resturant Rating, Tourist's List of Best Tourism Spots, Suddan Heusein and Generals List, America's Most Wanted, etc...) then you got ones that are completly no good (Ex: Company Blacklists of Employee's, etc... that's only one I can think of at the moment).

We even do blacklists to which are deeply embedded within a set soceity, if a member of the soceity does something wrong they could be exiled from that soceity or punished in some manner to try and get that person to do as soceity expects of him.

The sex offender's registry... is a topic that I'd liek to avoid. Its benefit and ethics aside, people get all worked up when someone shouts "won't you think of the children". Let's just say I am not a big supporter of it, even as a parent. (yes, I am that old)


The hotel rating... isn't exactly a shun list, it's more of a list of reviews... and these things usually do not give out really horrible reviews. You'd need something like "Do not go to this hotel. they steal your wallet!" to get close to the hate lists we've been concerned with here... and you can bet that will get them in some serious law suit if they ever post such kind of reviews. Besides, These things don't force themselves down your throat. I've yet to seen a hotel rating list that will add me into a list of bad customer if I ever stay at a hotel that they recommand against.


The terrorist list... well, is another topic I really don't want to get into... to an even greater degree. So I won't even comment on this one here.



Most societies nowadays does have a mechanism of removing disruptive/dangerous individuals from the public. Although, those systems are much more complex sophisticated than just a simple hate list to which a few individuals can decode which names to add into. More importantly, these systems do have the proper authority to do what they do. Often operated by an elected governing body. (There are those who forcefully inserted themselves, but people do question the ethics of that.)

Double Post Edited:

It gets equally bad when the opposing side acts in the same matter.

Yes, it does. Which is why I do not go out and make a list of hate list maintainers and start asking people to shun them.


Although, the hypocrisy and irony in doing that would make such great comedy...