Blacklist drama

[Danicus]

Re: Blacklist drama

The /blist in game and one create publicly have 1 profound difference though. In-game /blist is your own personal while public is an attempt to state a groups decision on who to avoid. Due to that major difference morality is integral to a public list were it holds no basis to a private list.

How does it not hold basis to a private decision? Community and personal experience contribute to your private list as well as a public. They're more the same that people realize.

Also, who's morality applies? US? Canadian? Japanese? European? The server forum whom it focusses on?

Fact is, a /blist list is morally ambiguous, and applying personal morality to it is outside it's function, regardless of game or forum media. Applying checks and balances is a good thing in my opinion (i.e. evidence), but those checks and balances are not required in-game to use it, and that is the model from which all is taken. People's disagreement with a list shouldn't precede the right to the existence of a list, since not all people will disagree with it.

People are free to disagree and /blist the /blisters, but it's counter productive. Rather, allow for differing opinions and not hate the person who disagrees with you.

I personally don't have anyone on my /blist right now. If I get a /tell from someone I don't want to interact with, I just don't answer or interact. How I got to that decision is mine alone to make. Obviously, if I take it to extremes, I'll be pretty lonely on my server, so I don't.

[Hamlet]

Re: Blacklist drama

Ok, I'll make the same point using "blacklists" instead of "The List". I apparently didn't type enough at work today. Gogo carpal tunnel. I said I could edit it in the post that got whiped, but I guess that wasn't good enough.

People keep bringing up the same point about "What gives the (maker of the blacklist) the right?" to pass judgement on people. The problem is that (the maker of the blacklist) doesn't have the right, and can't have the right. The only people that use (a blacklist) are the people that hate (what the blacklist is about). (As it is known), people on (blacklists) can have productive endgame lives because there are linkshells that are either (people that do whatever general thing that the blacklist is about) or they don't care about (whatever general thing that the blacklist is about) and just want to get drops.

It's no different than if (the maker of a blacklist) had a list of all the people that hate (whatever general thing that the blacklist is about) and sent them tells naming who they suspect of (whatever general thing that the blacklist is about). Having (edit: "a blacklist" instead of "the blacklist". Although "the blacklist" could be interpreted to be general, because a certain list ((which will go unnamed)) uses "the" in the title, I feel "a blacklist" is a better phrase here) on the internet is just more convienent.

Although (a maker of a blacklist) may be an asshole and claim to be able to "ruin your endgame life", he(/she) can't.

[Macht]

Re: Blacklist drama

Hmmm. Maybe Macht won't be a moderator for too much longer.

Don't think I've done anything out of line yet. Most of the stuff see done here is what the Mods have already talked about before we decided to close the previous thread and start this one.

Double Post Edited:

Ok, I'll make the same point using "blacklists" instead of "The List". I apparently didn't type enough at work today. Gogo carpal tunnel. I said I could edit it in the post that got whiped, but I guess that wasn't good enough.

Sorry just as we stated over and over again, topic is just to state validity of blacklists in general. As hot as this topic is it's kind of curcial to counter anything that goes against what's said quickly, to reduce the fires...

[Danicus]

Re: Blacklist drama

The problem is that (the maker of the blacklist) doesn't have the right, and can't have the right. The only people that use (a blacklist) are the people that hate (what the blacklist is about). (As it is known), people on (blacklists) can have productive endgame lives because there are linkshells that are either (people that do whatever general thing that the blacklist is about) or they don't care about (whatever general thing that the blacklist) and just want to get drops.

Nah. He/she has the right. You wish he/she didn't, but they does. And I find alot of irony in the boldface part - applying your logic, I could say that the people that fight blacklists are the people who hate blacklisters and blacklist users.

I don't hate people on my /blist, they would get there if they were annoying me and I couldn't avoid them. (As an aside, "hate" is such a strong word don't you think?)

Although (a maker of a blacklist) may be an asshole and claim to be able to "ruin your endgame life", he(/she) can't.

I could agree to this actually. I've had a 'major end gamer' pissed at me for a ridiculously stupid reason (as in, pulling one of his 30 sheep train in Konshtat while I'm leveling my lv. 14 THF trying to get to lv. 15), and I don't find my end game life the least bit affected.

[Macht]

Re: Blacklist drama

How does it not hold basis to a private decision? Community and personal experience contribute to your private list as well as a public. They're more the same that people realize.

Morality holds to community and public created stuff in the basis that as it gains notice the third and fourth wave won't be aware of the original defined basis to this and seeing backing to a list may put to much faith in it.

The more you get people putting to much faith in the more it becomes that people will beleive anyone on it of done something wrong and gives that list power. So you want to be sure that it's functioning with power to do good, not to turn into something bad.

Which shoots back to a moral delima.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Blacklist drama

OT: Several people on the list are in high powered endgame LSs.

[Hamlet]

Re: Blacklist drama

Nah. He has the right. You wish he didn't, but he does. And I find alot of irony in the boldface part - applying your logic, I could say that the only people that fight blacklists are the people who hate blackisters.

I really think you should use "he/she" here. We're trying to be general about this.

I don't think you understand my post. I'm saying anyone has the right to make their own blacklist, but as far as passing almighty judgement on people, no player has that right. The only people that can do that are employees of SE, by banning people. Although (a maker of a blacklist) may say things like "I'm going to ruin your endgame life", this is clearly impossible, because not every hates (whatever general thing a blacklist is about) as much as (a maker of a blacklist).

[Kirsteena]

Re: Blacklist drama

I think, at the end of the day, in a community such as Final Fantasy XI is, blacklists in one form or another will always exist. Whether is be talking to friends/linkshell members "omg, don't party with xyz, s/he can't do this right", and the next player remembering and not inviting them, to full blown public lists of known gilsellers/idiotic players (any old Bahamutians may remember when I mention Rueni and alla), they will always be part of life in a community like this.

I think the important thing is what you do with that information. Is forcing it down someones throat correct? In my opinion, no. I will always want to make my own judgement call. Don't blame me however if my opinion doesn't match yours. We live in a democracy, and have a right to free thought. The information may be useful, but let me deal in my own way.

[Danicus]

Re: Blacklist drama

I really think you should use "he/she" here. We're trying to be general about this.

Sorry, I fixed it.

I don't think you understand my post. I'm saying anyone has the right to make their own blacklist, but as far as passing almighty judgement on people, no player has that right. The only people that can do that are employees of SE, by banning people.

I do understand your post, I just don't see it the same way as you.

Edit: Actually, I agree with the fact that SE has the ultimate power whom they ban. I think players contribute to the information that leads to bannings, but I don't think it's players alone that direct their actions. They (SE) have their own independant methods as well.

[Aeni]

Re: Blacklist drama

In a game where you must rely on others to do what you want to do, community ostracism is a huge weapon to wield.

I had to quote this, because this is very true and so fundamental and dear to the principles of SquareEnix's Final Fantasy XI Online game.

Icemage, Taskmage, PiNG et al ... everyone can agree on one basic tenet of an MMO game.

It is a game based on interaction with - and I will emphasize this point for everyone - real life flesh and blood humans except in the case where a scripted application (Generally referenced as "bots") is used.

The Supreme Court of the United States' Judicial System will not distinguish the difference between an online game and the environment outside of that online game. (Ergo John D. Ashcroft, Attorney General-Petitioner vs. American Civil Liberties Union sic The Child Online Protection Act, et al) Because of this argument, laws that apply to the environment outside of an online game that regulates and enforces behavior of American citizens can extend beyond that virtual border and be applied to behavior inside of an online game.

I can cite additional examples if need be and provide arguments with regards to this fact, but one thing is for certain, just this fact alone has enough ramifications and cause to trickle into all facets of discussions with regards to player harassment and player interaction.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Blacklist drama

By these rights people can buy gil, screenshot the sender, then send the image to SE in order to get the sender and the suppliers banned. Oh, too bad SE is a Japanese company.

[Jarre]

Re: Blacklist drama

The blacklists that are publicly published are wrong.

I have seen (see example below) many times people being blacklisted just because they have +1 gear at low levels, and noobs think they are gill sellers.

Example: One of my LS mates been playing since the Beta, a melee fighter as a Hume, he had war 75, mnk 75, rdm 75, Drk 75, pld 60, thf 60, Sam 50, Bst 40, Drg 50 but no mage jobs or summoner / bard etc.

We went to the dunes, me as a warrior with standard gear with +1 body armour. Being a veteran he had about 60m gill in the bank from 3 years playing He came as WHM and had all =1 gear (because he could afford it) etc. he had raised smn to lvl 10 to give mp boost.

He was disallowed to join the party because they said he was a gill seller as no low level mage could afford that gear. The party leader told everyone to blist him and started shouting around the dunes for people to do the same. He was just a veteran player raising a job he had not touched (we all have jobs we haven’t even looked at yet) he bought +1 gear because he could afford it.

My argument is people do not have 100% proof to back up why a person should be blacklisted, creating any list without 100% proof victimise the innocent people who have been added due to "assumptions" . In real life this would be classed as harassment and I feel these blacklists are harassing innocent people.

If someone does annoy you, spam’s you, you have 100% proof they are RMT then blacklist them privately i.e. just yourself, let others judge for themselves who should be on their blist not create what can be considered as a "hate" campaign against someone.

[Caspian]

Re: Blacklist drama

I guess I'm just tired Aeni, but what does that have to do with choosing not to interact with someone? A public blacklist only holds as much power as you and the others around you give it. If there are people on there who you don't feel should, tell people in the game that they're "not that bad" and that they're actually good people.
Also, everyone seems to think that using a public blacklist automatically means that you'll be breaking the game's rules to bring some sort of justice to the game. I'm sure this does happen some, but the list itself has very little to do with it. People who wish to MPK and further grief those on the list could just as easily spend a little time asking around and find out who the RMT'ers are. If the list has proven itself to be reliable, it could be used as nothing more than a source of people that it may prove useful to avoid.

[Danicus]

Re: Blacklist drama

The Supreme Court of the United States' Judicial System will not distinguish the difference between an online game and the environment outside of that online game.

Even if this were true and relevant (i.e. protecting children from online predation isn't the same situation), the USA judicial system does not apply everywhere in the world.

It definitely doesn't apply to me.

[Keyln]

Re: Blacklist drama

My problem with blacklists are...

1) They are easily ignored. The blacklist has only as so much power as people give it. How many people will actually /blist people on the list? How many people will care? It would take literally thousands of people to make a blacklist effective. And even then, the true RMT on the list wouldn't care less, as they have means to support themselves outside of the regular playerbase. Only those who are innocent would actually care that they were on the list.

2) Blacklists tend to catch innocent people. Do RMT do strange things? Certainly. But do they do anything that normal people wouldn't do? Not necessarily. Consider when the whole padded cap exploit was active. Were there RMT taking advantage of that? Sure they were. But were everyone doing the padded cap exploit a RMT? Definately not. Believe it or not, there are people who do the same sort of things that regular RMT do for much the same reason, gil. Only difference is that they're not farming gil for real money, but for other reasons, such as the Kraken Club, a dynamis habit, a full set of HQ staves. Which brings me to...

3) Proof is easily faked. Do you really know how easy it is to fake someone saying something like, "I RMT 4 GILZ!" or something like that. Really, it's as simple as changing the echo text to the same color as the tell text, and then typing in, "/echo Soffiroth >> Do you sell gil online?" "/echo >> Soffiroth Why, yes, I am selling gilz." Take a screenshot of that, and bam!, instant proof. It is far far too easy for someone with a grudge to implicate his enemy in a blacklist for being RMT.