Patience: worth a try after all

[Ellipses]

Here's a completely typical story about a "should have known better" situation.

Tonight I was hanging out in Kazham, looking for a party on my BLM26. To make a long story short, I ended up in a party with a BRD/NIN, WHM/SMN (I didn't realize he was /SMN til the party was almost over), NIN/WAR, and MNK/WAR. We kept switching sixth members as people never showed up, had to leave, gave up on our crappy party, etc.

And it was a crappy party. The BRD was pulling with Lullaby, which would have been great (and we did get some nice chains), except that the NIN and MNK would never let the mobs stay asleep. We tried to tell them about it several times, especially after the first full party wipe. But it never stuck. Also, the NIN had a katana with Poison effect, so once he attacked, there was no hope of resleeping.

We tried getting some skillchains going. At first Blade: Teki > Combo for Impaction. The MNK had clearly never skillchained (used WS at the same time as NIN), so we explained that, and after a while they managed to get a few. But then a second NIN showed up, so we switched to Blade:Rin > Blade: Retsu for Distortion (don't think that was a good idea, but I didn't want to argue). With our original NIN using Blade: Teki all the time, and the MNK interrupting the SC, I saw that land successfully once. Throughout the different setups of the party, the grand total successful SCs was four.

The BRD, WHM, and I were getting increasingly frustrated, sending each other tells about the other members. There was a lot of death. We'd tried to explain stuff several times, but we were all bitter ol' meany high-levels who were tired of this sort of thing. You never know how someone is going to react, so it's often easier to just bitch to each other.

Finally, after another party wipe, while we were waiting for the latest sixth member (another NIN) to show up, things boiled over a bit. The BRD finally just asked the NIN if he knew how to blink tank. The WHM made some comment, and the NIN asked "Have you got a problem with me?" The WHM said that yes, he did have a problem. The next thing the NIN said was "Well tell me what it is so I can fix it."

So the WHM and BRD told him everything he was doing wrong, and explained how to time the Utsu recast so he wouldn't lose it as much. He took it all in without complaint, and in the next fight, things went about as professionally as they could have. It was an amazing turn-around. We started tearing through Mandies the way you're supposed to, and taking gobs out without much hassle. Unfortunately, we got aggro from a goblin pop at one point, and a long string of small mistakes meant another full wipe, after which we disbanded.

So we'd partied with this ninja for almost three hours, gritting our teeth and complaining to each other, wondering what was up. Completely fell into the trap of thinking he was just another brat who didn't care enough to try. When really, all we would have had to do was say something earlier on. I feel like a complete moron, and really disappointed in myself. Hopefully this will sink in and I won't let myself get all bitter and cranky for good.

[Fayttt]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Well, at least the party turned around in the end. I know I wouldn't have had the patience to stay for 3 hours. . . lol.

[Taskmage]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

I never would've expected that to work either. Way to go.

[avhmia]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Ugh, it's really easy to assume that some players are just idiots. I hate when I get that attitude, but it's sadly right more often than not. I remember one time in Garlaige, partying with my husband (PLD), our friends (SAM & WHM), a MNK, and a BLM. The BLM would open fights with his highest nuke, and he just wouldn't stop. My husband is an excellent tank, but there's only so much you can do against a BLM like that. The SAM and MNK were doing a fusion chain (it's funny to see the PLD and WHM MB, but not the BLM XD), we were just bitching up a storm about him in LS chat.

The MNK had to go AFK for a few, so we decided to take a break. Out of frustration, I say "Hey, Blmguy, do you think you could slow up with the nukes a little? Maybe try MBing?"

He says in party chat, "OK"

Then, a second later I get a /tell "I'm sorry, I don't really know what else to do? How do I MB?"

I was taken aback. I took a few minutes explaining how to time MBs, how the elemental enfeebles work (he'd been told in another party not to cast them!), how they stacked, and what they did.

When the MNK returned and we started up again, it was like a different party. Instead of opening the fight with Thunder, the BLM started with Burn, Choke, and Shock (he asked if that was a good combination XD), which helped the WHM's enfeebles land. After the second voke, he would throw a couple of light nukes and then rested until 50%ish, getting up again to nuke a little bit and take over healing so the WHM could start resting early. It took a couple of tries to get the MB timing down, but by the end of the party he was acting like a true professional.

I, on the other hand, felt like a mean old bat. XD

[Irisjir Callard]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Burn choke and shock all stack? :wow:

And here silly ol me thought I had to pick one.



On a side note, where in the hades do people get the idea not to cast the elemental enfeebles? The "No DoT incase ne need to sleep" rule goes out the window as soon as the RDM lands Dia or Bio. Tack on every DoT you can find!

[Ellipses]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Yep, Burn/Choke/Shock and Drown/Rasp/Frost. If you cast one from either triplet, it will cancel any and all from the other triplet, but you can stack all three of each triplet. (Basically, the elements that are neither strong nor weak to each other go together.) The only reason I could see not to cast them would be if the BLM is having MP issues. I was skipping the elemental enfeebles last night because we were going so fast I just didn't feel like I could spare the MP.

Hopefully if someone asked a BLM not to cast elemental enfeebles at all, they'd explain why, and hopefullly the BLM would get that that reason wouldn't necessarily be universal. I'm not sure that's a realistic amoutn of hope, though.

[avhmia]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Burn choke and shock all stack? :wow:

And here silly ol me thought I had to pick one.



On a side note, where in the hades do people get the idea not to cast the elemental enfeebles? The "No DoT incase ne need to sleep" rule goes out the window as soon as the RDM lands Dia or Bio. Tack on every DoT you can find!

They're actually really flexiblel like this, and a good BLM can tailor the enfeebs to the needs of the party. Burn+Choke+Shock lowers INT, VIT, and MND. In this case, Burn and Shock will decrease the mob's resistance to elemental magic and INT-based enfeebs (nukes, blind, gravity); shock lowers the mob's resistance to MND enfeebs (paralyze, silence, slow); and the lower VIT lets the DDs do more melee damage.

Another common combo is Frost+Rasp+Drown (AGI+STR+DEX), which makes the mob weaker and less evasive.

[Taskmage]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Yep, Burn/Choke/Shock and Drown/Rasp/Frost. If you cast one from either triplet, it will cancel any and all from the other triplet, but you can stack all three of each triplet. (Basically, the elements that are neither strong nor weak to each other go together.) The only reason I could see not to cast them would be if the BLM is having MP issues. I was skipping the elemental enfeebles last night because we were going so fast I just didn't feel like I could spare the MP.

That's not quite right. You can cast Choke and Drown at the same time since they have no elemental interaction.

fire > ice > wind > earth > lightning > water > fire

Elemental relationships. Fire is strong to ice, etc.

Burn > Frost > Choke > Rasp > Shock > Drown > Burn

So let's say you cast Frost, since it's most common. Frost is ice elemental, so if you cast Burn it will remove the Frost, since ice is weak to fire. If you tried to cast Choke instead, the Choke won't work, because wind is weak to ice and the Frost effect keeps the wind one from applying.

If he was told not to cast them in another party, it might have been because he was spamming them alongside his nukes. That or the other guy was a n00b.

[Ellipses]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Erm... I totally knew that. >.>

[Hamlet]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

and explained how to time the Utsu recast so he wouldn't lose it as much.

What's the trick with this? I'm somewhat new to nin tanking (27 now) and don't know of any timing to it. Unless you mean to cast as the mob is hitting you, because it seems that early hits while casting don't interupt.

[Ellipses]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

He was waiting til all his shadows had dropped to start casting, instead of casting when he was down to one shadow. Either that last shadow gets stripped by a hit, or you cancel it manually right before Utsusemi goes off so you get three more shadows. (That's my understanding of the conversation; I'm no ninja expert or anything.)

[Hamlet]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

He was waiting til all his shadows had dropped to start casting, instead of casting when he was down to one shadow. Either that last shadow gets stripped by a hit, or you cancel it manually right before Utsusemi goes off so you get three more shadows. (That's my understanding of the conversation; I'm no ninja expert or anything.)

Hmm, I thought that you could just override an old cast with a new one without cancelling. I could be wrong because I haven't tried it.

But on mandies, if you're main tanking as nin/war, there's no way you'll have a shadow left by the time your recast timer is up.

My routine in the jungles has been someone pulls a mandie, I voke and cast the blind ninjitstu. By the time that's casted, and I pull out my swords, more often than not my shadows are down. On an odd occasion I have one left.

[Ellipses]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Well, I could be wrong about Ichi overwriting Ichi. But this was mostly for the first recast in a battle. Cast it while the puller's out, and have it ready again when the mob shows up. Especially since it was a BRD pulling with Lullaby, being able to recast once with a shadow up shouldn't have been a problem. Subsequent recasts, yeah, no way.

Edit: Our routine should have been: Ninja casts Utsusemi, Bard Lullabies a mandy, Ninja Provokes and draws weapons out of range, fight starts when mob wakes up, Ninja starts recasting at 1 shadow. He wasn't using any other ninjutsu, which could have been a whole other conversation, but one step at a time.

[Raydeus]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Yep, Ichi overrides Ichi, and Ni overrides Ichi and Ni, but if you have Ni on and you wanna cast Ichi you gotta take it off manually.

Which is why you see NINs lvl 40+ cancelling their Haste.

And it's always fun watching a NIN going postal about it.

[avhmia]

Re: Patience: worth a try after all

Yep, Ichi overrides Ichi, and Ni overrides Ichi and Ni, but if you have Ni on and you wanna cast Ichi you gotta take it off manually.

Which is why you see NINs lvl 40+ cancelling their Haste.

And it's always fun watching a NIN going postal about it.

Or their Protect or Shell, in which case it's the WHM that gets to go postal