Greivances with "The List"

[neighbortaru]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Hmm, perhaps a 3 strikes provision would be acceptable to both parties?

edit: yes, I meant 3 strikes for ppl who party with GS.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Hmm, perhaps a 3 strikes provision would be acceptable to both parties?

or you could at least tell us what your talking about. As I said I am unaware of any flames that came from my posts. If I did and you can show me I will appologize for them.

nvm I see now your talking about 3 strikes for pt with GS.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Or hey you could just stop posting in the thread. as you said to me somthing about "Being un able to walk away" You dont have to read this jsut as we dont have to read (which I have not) The list thread.

We obviously still wanna discuss it. You dont. So dont.

My issue isn't with your desire to discuss. My issue is with your methods, these being spamming the forum and moderators with PMs until they supposedly cave in to your one-sided demands. This board isn't a democracy, you play by the rules set down by Ping and the moderators or move on and go elsewhere. I've had more than a few differences of opinion with certain mods but I still accept this simple fact, how is it beyond you?

[Spooka]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well... I made an account just to get in on this. I've read a large portion of this thread, and here's my input.

RD - I respect your desire to eliminate a plague from a game that ruins in some way, almost every legitimate users experience.

However...

I get the impression from your posts and your approach to this situation, that you are not an adult. I feel like this idea has not been fully fleshed out, and the "all or nothing" approach is rediculous. As well, your defense of expecting others to dig up all this information to support your "list" is a complete contradiction of what this list is supposted to do.

No one else here has taken this task upon themselves, to root out and destroy RTM. This is your project, and infact, should be considered your "job" if you really want this list to work. In order to eliminate or just to hamper the RTM, will require a team of people, working day and night, collecting data, names, locations, times, screenshots, etc. 1 screenshot of someone saying something, regardless of what they say should not be the proof required to ruin their endgame experience.

Fundimentally, your list is unfair for the very reason that it is impossible for non-english speaking people, and people without computers to access. Unless you can get mailing addresses of those who you inform about partying with RTM, or phone numbers or any other way to contact them, then what you are doing is WRONG! Also, verifying that someone else was not using the account at the time should be done, by sending muliple tells to said person over the course of several days durring different times.

Also, all data collected must be backed up. Saying you lost a bunch of screenshots of people on the list due to computer re-formats proves you are lacking the professional attitude this list requires. I feel everyone on the list, who's "proof" is now gone should be removed (if they have already then good on you).

One question I have for you is this: What happens if a RTM character is heping a non RTM player. Should they be added to the list, even if the actions of the non RTM player (the help recieved) do not benifit the RTM player?

Now again, I can't help but respect your desire to do something about the problem of RTM, but attempting to do so, at the expense of trashing other (especially new) players reputations and gaming enjoyment makes you NO better than the RTM's your fighting. Please, think about that.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

And you seem to be ignoring that I and those on the Pro-list side do not consider it harassment and threatening, we consider it stating facts and giving the offendor a chance to defend themselves at a later date should they stay in PT.

Technical quibble: (The best way to begin a long, rambling post!)

Stating a "fact" doesn't mean it's not a threat; those two are not mutually exclusive. If you plan on doing something, and say you intend so, then the statement is factual (and forward looking) in the sense that you've not lied about your intention.

If that something which you intent is harmful to the recipient of the message, and you stated that intent in your message then it is a threat. You can't get around that.

"I'm going to hurt you" is a threat. (Doesn't it sound threatening?! Seems self-evident to me... But I'm not a big guy in real life, and easily scared...)

"I'm going to hurt you" (but I don't really mean to follow through) is an empty threat, but still a threat.

"I'm going to hurt you if you don't do this" is a conditional threat.

"I'm going to hurt you in an underhanded (or rule bending) way if you don't do this" is a conditional threat, also called blackmail or extortion.


* * *

Not all threats are bad, just to be clear.

Police: "Hey kid! If I catch you trying to tag again, I'm gonna toss you in jail, and call your Mom. You got that?!"

Of course, the police has the authority to do that, as recognized by the law and the community.

There shouldn't be any real disagreement on whether RD is rule abiding; if he uses threats, it's harassment, and against ToS. In that case, it's disingenuousto claim what he does as "stating the facts".

Obviously, I personally do not know much about the Seraph's player community, and this board probably does not include enough Seraph folks for the rest of us to make any decisive judgment whether that community in fact support RD's methods or not.

However, if Seraph players are not all that different from other forum posters here (and there's no reason to think they would be all that different), it's reasonable assume a good many of them would object to RD's methods.

Especially to those who do not know RD personally. Even more so for those who do not know FD, and recently landed in a workable party after days/weeks of seeking.

* * *

RD, if you are honestly having trouble understanding the objections:

#1. You are threatening (and thus harassing) people; calling it "stating the facts" doesn't change the nature of your conversation with people in party together with RMT suspects.

#2. You likely have no standing, as in no moral authority. The #1 stated above means you've violating a ToS provision, a provision which most players agree with. While you essentially claim the Seraph community is solidly behind your effort, but unless the Seraph player base is radically different from the posters here in their sense of what is just and what is not, it's not an easy assumption to swallow.

If you honestly understand the objections but choose to ignore them because of the tone they have been presented in (yes, they're "flame" posts), I urge you to reconsider.

There's a certain nobility in what you do, and refraining from the morally questionable aspects can only make what is just stand out more.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

A lot of ramble in there but the upshot is your belief is that the community should alow people to party with sellers. I disagree I feel it is our reponsiblity as a community to make life as hard as possible for sellers. Those taht aid them for me land in the same category as sellers as the servers Vermin.

This is my one gripe with the List.. and most others.

I'm a Thf. Not quite what you'd call a high invite rate for parties job.

I stick with exp parties on my Thf like my life depended on it, because guess what - I don't know when my next one will be. Be that those I make, or those I get invited to. If I'm actively seeking and trying to make one... I might be able to get one party a day playing for four hours ish a day. So - I get a party, and joy of joys - I start to exp. Then out of the blue, I get some self imposed judge/jury/executioner tell me to get out of the party or he'll smear my name with "The List". Double U T Eff. That's the first thought going through my mind. I'm being punished because I took an invite to exp, where in truth, I'm easily replaced by any number of jobs - and now I'm meant to leave it, because I might be helping some bad people get exp that they can easily get without me anyways?

No sodding way. No way in hell do I need someone who's party experience comes from popular and party whore jobs telling me to stop exp'ing because they've got problems with the people I'm partying with, because guess what...

They could exp without me anyways... but right now - I would have trouble exp'ing without them. I'm not a Red Mage who can just drop and say "Hey - any parties out there need Refresh?" and get a fresh invite in ten minutes.

Runningdemon or anyone who supports this list tell me one good reason why I should be punished for getting a party. I support a list of gilsellers, I support a list of people who have actively helped them get Sky/Sea/Dynamis/etc... but random parties who're just exp'ing... that's harassment.

RD can easily say - just leave the party and get another. Words of wisdom from a bard. Words of utter genius. Words of more wisdom from a Beast Master. When you've had the complete absence of exp for weeks, because you're not flavour of the month - you still haven't the right to deny me a party because I'm a bystander. Period.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

My issue isn't with your desire to discuss. My issue is with your methods, these being spamming the forum and moderators with PMs until they supposedly cave in to your one-sided demands. This board isn't a democracy, you play by the rules set down by Ping and the moderators or move on and go elsewhere. I've had more than a few differences of opinion with certain mods but I still accept this simple fact, how is it beyond you?

I have sent ONE pm ONE. I dont think that is spam. and posting in the designated thread to discuss the list is not spam either.

[Tsingtao]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

No sodding way. No way in hell do I need someone who's party experience comes from popular and party whore jobs telling me to stop exp'ing because they've got problems with the people I'm partying with, because guess what...

They could exp without me anyways... but right now - I would have trouble exp'ing without them. I'm not a Red Mage who can just drop and say "Hey - any parties out there need Refresh?" and get a fresh invite in ten minutes.

And that is the exact attitude I disagree with, PLD is hardly picked up for fun in the 70s or before for that matter. The levels are huge and guess what I still turn down parties with RMT in them because I beleive its the wrong thing to do.

I hope you enjoy end game when you arrive and see what you have helped place there. For the rest of us we get to live with the consequences of your actions is there any suprise we wish to have nothing to do with you?

Find it hard to believe THF is that short on invites also, unless I live in a magical realm all on my own. Post 33 invites flood in if you're up to the job, I'm assuming you're geared right and have capped all the propper skills.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Hmm, perhaps a 3 strikes provision would be acceptable to both parties?

edit: yes, I meant 3 strikes for ppl who party with GS.

Actually that sounds like a quite acceptable compromise. I mean, if they know they've parties with a gilseller once, and have been informed that person is a gilseller.

I doubt that if they are a good person, they wouldnt party with that person again.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Actually that sounds like a quite acceptable compromise. I mean, if they know they've parties with a gilseller once, and have been informed that person is a gilseller.

I doubt that if they are a good person, they wouldnt party with that person again.

I am inclined to agree with that as well

[Ryddr]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

There's no good excuse for chronically assisting GS. Perhaps a new policy on the method in which addendums to the list are made should be pondered. However, this is RD's list, and that's his choice, and even though I disagree with 'some' things about it, I will continue to support it simply because I'm in accordance with the vast majority of it.

Hmm, perhaps a 3 strikes provision would be acceptable to both parties?

edit: yes, I meant 3 strikes for ppl who party with GS.

That is indeed the sort of policy I was speaking of. Still, I believe the decision is up to RD, and I would continue to defend the list without such a policy. Personally, I fear that if too much lee-way (sp? never seen that word in writing @_@) is given to those who are opposed to the list, the list will disappear altogether. Some people actually impose their opinion stating that it should be removed altogether....

[e d i t] Those people, by the way, clearly hold a vendetta against RD and also tend to post very off-topic thoughts. Usually thoughts based on RD's personal character (real-world character) and that is in no way the topic of discussion. I'd prefer not to see those suggestions that are based on inscrutable bias.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

[/i]

That is indeed the sort of policy I was speaking of. Still, I believe the decision is up to RD, and I would continue to defend the list without such a policy. Personally, I fear that if too much lee-way (sp? never seen that word in writing @_@) is given to those who are opposed to the list, the list will disappear altogether. Some people actually impose their opinion stating that it should be removed altogether....

If the list was going anywhere it would be gone already. I dont think a comprimise such as that is asking too much. if your going to try to make everyone universally happy your gonna be trying for a long time. What we can get here though is Majoraty acceptance.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

And that is the exact attitude I disagree with, PLD is hardly picked up for fun in the 70s or before for that matter. The levels are huge and guess what I still turn down parties with RMT in them because I beleive its the wrong thing to do.

I hope you enjoy end game when you arrive and see what you have helped place there. For the rest of us we get to live with the consequences of your actions is there any suprise we wish to have nothing to do with you?

Find it hard to believe THF is that short on invites also, unless I live in a magical realm all on my own. Post 33 invites flood in if you're up to the job, I'm assuming you're geared right and have capped all the propper skills.

hahahahahah - you've obviously never played the job then. We've the worst DoT in the game (a geared Whm can put out better in melee), our purpose is totally annulled post 60 - when any job can do what we do - only better, and with more damage and if that wasn't enough... our performance relies on the ability of others.

And currently - Pld is having a bit of a comeback at least from what I've seen with friends going from 70 - 75 in a week of random pickup parties. ToAU is nice for that.

So - did I help make these gil sellers level 75? No.. because I'm totally replacable. In fact - possibly not even needed. Sure - you can punish me and get off on that - that I was put on your blacklist of harassment, but that's what it really comes down to. People who don't know enough lording over those who're already having a hard enough time because of the impact RMT and other influences have had on the game.

Welcome to the world already there - I didn't help make it the way it is, but you and your friends sure are. In truth - I'm glad I'm not on Seraph, because I'd hate to have to crawl begging to one of you guys to help me level, because I'd unwittingly joined a party that had suspected RMT in it. Because I can pretty much guarantee none of you would spare the time to help me level.

You and the rest are harassing others. Period. Point blank. You can argue it, and you can try and make it sound pretty - but the fact of the matter is, you're petty bullies. That's the long and short of it. Welcome to your world where you support bullying like happened at schools.

[Ryddr]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

No one else here has taken this task upon themselves, to root out and destroy RTM. This is your project, and infact, should be considered your "job" if you really want this list to work. In order to eliminate or just to hamper the RTM, will require a team of people, working day and night, collecting data, names, locations, times, screenshots, etc. 1 screenshot of someone saying something, regardless of what they say should not be the proof required to ruin their endgame experience.

This idea has passed through my mind a great number of times since "The List" was posted. At first, I thought it was a good idea, but as you think further down the line...

No one wants false-GMs policing the entire server. The team of people would have to be flawless in their personal character in order to pull this off without:

1) The power going directly to their craniums

2) Breaking the ToS for somewhat impersonating GMs or an employee of SE

and

3) Be respected by the entire server as an actual benefit, rather than a detriment to Vana'dielian society.

Chances are anyone appointed to be on such a team would develop a monster ego. I personally think RD has done a good job of managing this list without working up his ego and thankfully, blowing off the comments from people who claim he is (he clearly isn't). I can only assume that those who think he has either came into this discussion eons too late, or didn't really even absorb the posts and would rather just leap to the offensive.


OT- I too am 17, but it's not true to say age has nothing to do with posts. Personal experience grows with age and allows for more sensible (real-world sensible....) ideas. Sometimes however, that generalization clearly doesn't stand...

[Tsingtao]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

So - did I help make these gil sellers level 75? No.. because I'm totally replacable. In fact - possibly not even needed. Sure - you can punish me and get off on that - that I was put on your blacklist of harassment, but that's what it really comes down to. People who don't know enough lording over those who're already having a hard enough time because of the impact RMT and other influences have had on the game.

Yes you did, you levelled with them. You are only replacable because others share the attitude you're currently displaying. If they also said no who would replace you, sure other may do it but lets face it is that an excuse?

As for poor DoT you maybe righht my THF is only 45 but I do use them heavily in parties. Post VB they close skillchains very well. Heck I SATA burnt from 33 - 40 in the next just sataing backwards and forwards with another THF at very high xp rates. In Garliage you can almost duo with another THF on bats with evasion gear in. Like I say though my experience is limited with the job.