Greivances with "The List"

[samarium]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

It's not a fact that the problem does not lie with the gilfarmers - RMT had to occur before anyone bought it. RMT is not innocent, and they perpetuate these ToS violations - to say they're not the problem is simply wrong. Perhaps if we could stifle their supply and methods (like SE does with bans), people would be more motivated to earn their gil and not so discouraged at their effort. It's fair logic to assume so, and is also parallel to SE's efforts. And you'd be suprised how many people do admit to buying gil. Sad, but true.

Again, I disagree. Not helping them, not PTing with them, not raising them, not teleporting them IS slowing them down, if not stopping them. If I don't teleport them, that gives legit players a few extra minutes to gather their legit friends at an NM pop. If I don't raise them, it gives legit players a chance at an NM they've been camping. Thief's Knife is a perfect example: I see alot of THF's camping that NM right along side RMT who have the knife on them. Know why they do this? To stifle supply so people will buy from them (as much as I loathe to say it, it's very clever of them to do so). So I will do what I can to help legit players do their thing unfettered by RMT.

The term Persecution is a little excessive, don't you think? We're not acting against RMT because of their religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation. We're doing our part as players to fight the ToS violation of RMT and their tactics against legit players, and for those who willingly assist them.


No, RMT is ruining our gameplay. The rest of this comment to too dramatic to reasonably answer (although it's kinda funny). I can see you're infuriated.


Wrong. In every sentence here - wrong. Your reference is wrong, we don't follow them around (they follow us actually to harass us) as you incorrectly assume without any knowledge whatsoever, we don't judge by looks, and we don't persecute them.

You didn't read. Some of you follow them around and torment 'em - not all of you.

You accuse me of being dramatic? You, who support the phrase "Removal from list - admit that what you did was wrong and apologize" accuse me of being dramatic?

Well, okay, maybe I am, but better dramatic than megalomaniacal and deluded.

Give me proof that you're not just acting on looks. Proof. Not an assertation that you have proof somewhere - rock-solid proof, an offer to sell you gil perhaps, mailbox history, IGE records. Screenshots, not testimony.

-sam

[Ziero]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Again I'll say this about the Sellers, many of them are damn near obvious that they don't play for fun. I'm sure some of the names on there might be incorrect, as no list will ever be 100%, but it don't seem their GS list is the main problem.

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

You have every right to make your lists, you even have the right to post it here via the admin's consent, hell you even have the right to ignore these people in game and refuse to ever do anything to even remotely resemble assisting them. But what you do NOT have the right to do is actively harrass these players in the game, no matter what they do. You do not have the right to MPK, you do not have the right to screw up their Exp, you do not have the right to make them beg for forgiveness and you do NOT have the right to go around trying to bully people out of pts. Nothing you can say gives you the right to actively harrass other players.

I agree. I would never harass, MPK, screw their XP, nor 'make them beg for forgiveness'. Nor do I bully people out of PT's. I'm not on a 'god-kick' as some have suggested, but I do like to do what I can to fight back against the RMT and it's effect on our gameplay.

But if they're PTing with known RMT, and they know it, and don't care and keep doing it, then they're perpetuating the problem and I personally don't want to have much to do with them.

Double Post Edited:

You didn't read. Some of you follow them around and torment 'em - not all of you.

Prove this to me, and I'll direct you to threads about RMT's 'methods' in Sky. Who on Seraph follows them around?

You accuse me of being dramatic? You, who support the phrase "Removal from list - admit that what you did was wrong and apologize" accuse me of being dramatic?

Well, okay, maybe I am, but better dramatic than megalomaniacal and deluded.

We're talking about a list of RMTers on Seraph. In a game. That's not real life.

Give me proof that you're not just acting on looks. Proof. Not an assertation that you have proof somewhere - rock-solid proof, an offer to sell you gil perhaps, mailbox history, IGE records. Screenshots, not testimony.

-sam

In my SS of Gimya's PT, he/she was accused of being RMT - she concedes inadvertently that she 'used to' sell gil by replying {Yesterday}. Proof enough? How about the RMTer's that have been banned by SE themselves? There names were on that list, now some are not. The Kiss-crew, the -xialangs, Chrismeng's group, etc. RMT that are now banned by the people with the most proof in hand.

Here's the SS: http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...d/sayconvo.jpg
Here's the post in the thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/581303-post49.html

[ikkleste]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Actually, my submission to the list wasn't some unlucky guy. It was about PTing with the most infamous RMT on our server - Gimya. Gimya runs a LS called Riverslake (may have changed names now), and if you research our server boards, you would find several threads about them and their actions. So in effect, I did choose the worst offender.

But how many people have partied with Gimya? Is every single one on the list or just a random sampling? The point is if you are only naming and shaming a few random people it's not going to slow Gimya from leveling at all. All it's gonna do is make those few peoples game awkward. Whether they are the worst offenders (as may be the case with yours, but just because some schmuck partied with the worst, it doesn't make them the worst) or not.

If someone hated RMT with every inch of their body, and was told they're in a PT with RMT, don't you think they'd react accordingly? If they hated RMT as you say, they would proabably listen. Furthermore, if they hate RMT, they'll know (in the case I was involved in) who they are.

thats not what i'm getting at...

i'm talking about someone who doesn't care... gets added... suffers... "repents" their sins... but because they told you to get bent and didn't note any URL you gave them have no way to be removed from the list...

or worse you add them to the list... they ignore you... they don't even realise the reason people hate them is because they are on the list... then even if later they decide that gilsellers are a bad thing they have no way to stop people hating them.

Basically if someone ignores you (as to be fair i'd be likely to do, not because i agree with RMT in anyway but because i'd resent you telling me how to play my game) they have no way to be removed even if they change their veiws on RMT (or disagreed with it in the first place and just ended up in a party with the wrong person and weren't willing to drop at your behest.)
It seems to me the way to remove your self from the list isn't about repenting for the 'trasngressions', but listening to the demands of thoe maintaing the list.

[Ryddr]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

P.S. To all the 'You're not on Seraph so STFU' people. RMT is on EVERY server. Hell it's in EVERY MMORPG, I even heard Animal Crossing for the DS has RMTs, so it's not just you. I have friends on my server that deal with Gil Sellers. Get MPK'd in sky, have their claims stolen and all that. Anyone who has ever played a MMORPG for an extended period of time will have dealt with RMT at one point or another, so it's not something special to Seraph so you really shouldn't act like it is.

Whoa...no one from Seraph ever said anything about RMT existing exclusively on Seraph. Kind of a ridiculous thought to entertain really. We understand that every server of every MMO (not that I could care any less about other MMOs) is plagued by the same issue. However, there is one difference that Seraph has from other ffxi servers....we know who the majority of our GS are and we are actively trying to quell GSing on our server. Most of the people who enter this thread from other servers even admit to not knowing the GSs their server...that's too bad. The first time I looked down "The List" I clicked about 15 of the names on it. I knew them. I knew their reputations. RD has had a lot of dedication and has put a lot more effort into this than anyone else. We know we're not different GS-wise from any other server, but no other server has had the playerbase working against the GS.

[Ziero]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

K, that SS don't 'prove' she's a gil seller, all it shows is you threatening someone for pting with one. Which btw, IS harrassment. And that's the second SS that shows the defenders of the 'Partied with Gsers' part of the list harrassing people in game.

And I never said anything about taking down the list, nor did I say you should ignore the 'partied with GSers' part. I said that most people feel that part is going overboard as it's causing people who have nothing to do with RMT to be harrassed. I Also said you should add to it all the OTHER people who do worse things then pt with GS as well as the people who help those who Pt with GS. I mean if you're going to do something, do it all the way.

Double Post Edited:

Whoa...no one from Seraph ever said anything about RMT existing exclusively on Seraph. Kind of a ridiculous thought to entertain really. We understand that every server of every MMO (not that I could care any less about other MMOs) is plagued by the same issue. However, there is one difference that Seraph has from other ffxi servers....we know who the majority of our GS are and we are actively trying to quell GSing on our server. Most of the people who enter this thread from other servers even admit to not knowing the GSs their server...that's too bad. The first time I looked down "The List" I clicked about 15 of the names on it. I knew them. I knew their reputations. RD has had a lot of dedication and has put a lot more effort into this than anyone else. We know we're not different GS-wise from any other server, but no other server has had the playerbase working against the GS.

I'ma hafta stop you right there and say no.

Though I don't know *all* the GSers on my server, I do know a LOT of my friends know them. There ARE other servers who have lists of them and try to avoid them so again Seraph is not special. But that part of my post was specifically aimed at the people trying to say that anyone not at Seraph endgame and intimately knowledgable about their server's specific GS'ers have no right to talk.

Like that guy who doesn't have FFXI yet, but has posted many times in this topic. He HAS played other MMORPGS and dealt with the same problems as Seraph is facing, yet someone said he has no right to talk. RMT is the same crap with different names in every MMORPG so even if a player hasn't met THE Gimya, they could have easily met someone EXACTLY like them.

The 'You're not from Seraph so STFU' argument has no base and that's all my statement meant.

p.s. This auto edit anti double post system rocks XD

[samarium]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Prove this to me, and I'll direct you to threads about RMT's 'methods' in Sky. Who on Seraph follows them around?

Haha! You prove to me that they don't, and I'll prove to you that they do.

We both know trying to prove it either way is a huge waste of time. But telling me that no anti-RMT player has ever gone out of their way to torment a gilseller is really pointless, and I'm sure you realize it.

If that screenshot (<Yesterday>.... orz) is the best proof you have on this endeavor then all of a sudden I feel less like arguing and more like laughing.

I'm indifferent to RMTs. There. I've said it. They make prices go up! Big whoop. When one price goes up, all prices go up; everything I farm is worth more. I had to farm 80,000,000 silk threads back when they were 10k a stack, I still have to farm 80,000,000 now that everything's five times more expensive; nothing has changed.

-sam

[Ziero]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

It's more the fact GSers actively harrass people while they're fighting the 'big' mobs and such that cause problems. At lower lvls you won't see their direct influences, but in Sky and such they WILL be on your ass with a load of mobs or just to cause you to lag. THAT'S what pisses people off, not the rising prices but the constant attacks. Kirin should NOT be something you have to worry about losing claim on, it's a forced pop. But GSers still can and will do everything they can to screw you up.

Arguing about the GS list is pointless as it DOES do have it's uses, as slight as they may be. It's their actions towards people who PT with GSers that are the things they should revise IMO.

[samarium]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

It's more the fact GSers actively harrass people while they're fighting the 'big' mobs and such that cause problems. At lower lvls you won't see their direct influences, but in Sky and such they WILL be on your ass with a load of mobs or just to cause you to lag. THAT'S what pisses people off, not the rising prices but the constant attacks. Kirin should NOT be something you have to worry about losing claim on, it's a forced pop. But GSers still can and will do everything they can to screw you up.

Arguing about the GS list is pointless as it DOES do have it's uses, as slight as they may be. It's their actions towards people who PT with GSers that are the things they should revise IMO.

So... it's not really RMT you're upset with. It's assholes.

Gilsellers do just that - sell gil and inflate the economy at an accelerated rate.

Assholes MPK and steal HNMs.

Saying that all RMT are MPKing assholes is similar to saying that no anti-RMT player has ever hassled a gilseller - complete bull.

The second part of the post I completely agree with. Obviously.

-sam

[Ziero]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

And I agree

Hence why I posted this:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/598938-post370.html

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

Haha! You prove to me that they don't, and I'll prove to you that they do.

You just go 'round and round.

We both know trying to prove it either way is a huge waste of time. But telling me that no anti-RMT player has ever gone out of their way to torment a gilseller is really pointless, and I'm sure you realize it.

You're right. This is a huge waste of time, since your mind's made up. I can't argue your exaggerations any more than I could a 4 year old's fantasies - they believe it and that's that. And I never told you that I claim no anti-RMT player has ever gone out of their way to torment people. You put those words in my mouth. It's waste of time to argue with you since you can't keep your information straight.

If that screenshot (<Yesterday>.... orz) is the best proof you have on this endeavor then all of a sudden I feel less like arguing and more like laughing.

It's evidence. Tell me what you think it means? Do so and explain to me Gimya's virtuous existence, and let me know why I'm misunderstanding him/her. Try to explain and justify his/her history on the server, at NM camps, and such. You can't because you don't know Gimya and her LS. And yes, not being on Seraph is a disadvantage since you speak of whom you know nothing about.

And, you obviously haven't researched the Seraph forums for Gimya's LS (Riverslake). There's enough testimony from legit players there to give enough evidence. However I doubt you'll do any such thing since you seem the type of person, in my opinion, to be blissfully ignorant and close minded. You're only out to prove your point, regardless of whether or not it's agreeable to the facts.

I'm not discounting the RMT on other servers, but it seems Seraph is getting lambasted because it's more organized than other servers in listing it's RMT. I see them on other server forums as well, just not as well developed as ours.

I'm indifferent to RMTs. There. I've said it. They make prices go up! Big whoop. When one price goes up, all prices go up; everything I farm is worth more. I had to farm 80,000,000 silk threads back when they were 10k a stack, I still have to farm 80,000,000 now that everything's five times more expensive; nothing has changed.

-sam

That's fine - you can be indifferent to RMT since that's your opinion. However, I'm not indifferent. I do what I can to fight it. And they do more than make prices go up, you probably just haven't figured that out yet. I would think you'd know about it farming Spider Webs in Boyahda. Before the MPK changes, that place was hell if you got caught unawares and had half dozen Spiders on you because RMT wanted you to leave.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

I think that its true to the fact that if your going to add every person you come across that pts with a GS you better start stalking the AH to see who buys what and add them too. because if we didnt buy their items then they wouldnt make gil and not continue.

If your gonna slander one group hit them all. And I know its true that somewhere along your FF career everyone ends up pt with a GS or helping them in some way. Witch is why the list would be best listing only known GS to avoid and stay away from. You turned a great idea for the community into a hate club on players just trying to play and enjoy the game.

[Ryddr]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

I think that its true to the fact that if your going to add every person you come across that pts with a GS you better start stalking the AH to see who buys what and add them too. because if we didnt buy their items then they wouldnt make gil and not continue.

......


....you can't see the names of people who are selling the items you bid upon at the AH until the transaction has been made.

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

If your gonna slander one group hit them all.

How is it slander if we provide SS's (as requested by admins on this site) showing they're PTing with RMT, and admit to it, and don't care? PiNG stated that SS's are required for any additions while at FFXIOnline (shown earlier in this thread).

And I know its true that somewhere along your FF career everyone ends up pt with a GS or helping them in some way. Witch is why the list would be best listing only known GS to avoid and stay away from. You turned a great idea for the community into a hate club on players just trying to play and enjoy the game.

I agree, I'm sure it's happened more times than ever reported. But again, if something can be done with that which we know of, it should be so. The logic of saying "well, if we can't get them all, don't bother" isn't very realistic or helpful. You do what you can with what you've got.

It's not a hate club on players. Those happen easily enough on EVERY server forum, and have nothing to do with this list.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

How is it slander if we provide SS's (as requested by admins on this site) showing they're PTing with RMT, and admit to it, and don't care? PiNG stated that SS's are required for any additions while at FFXIOnline (shown earlier in this thread).
.

It is still slander even if the party is guilty. You can slander someones name even if they have done what you are throwing around their name for.

again i want to make clear Im not bashing your list. Only the part of the list I dont agree with witch is the "parties with GS list". I would love a list of known GS on all server forums. but dont see where you are getting with throwing in the "parties with GS list" You might as well take your known GS list and check the AH and make a "Buys from GS list" cause that is helping them just as much if not more.

Double Post Edited:
on a side note I like the avatar