Greivances with "The List"

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Your list fails because it not only won't change anything on Seraph and runs a high risk of targeting innocent players. In the end, you've really just become what you seek to destroy - people who disrupt the game experience for their personal gain. Yes, you do have something to gain from this - attention, you seek to be a hero for a cause. Yet you're willing to ruin the game experience for others over what quite arguably is an honest mistake everyone has made.

-- Yes... he's doing it for personal gain because he wants everyone on the server to help just him against the RMT whenever he goes and camps an NM, and he wants tributes from us too because he made the list, oh, and we have to pay a monthly fee just to use the list so he can line his own pockets.

Yeesh... it's available to the public for view, and it's purpose is to alert players on our server to who the RMT are, and to a lesser degree, who the players are who knowingly and willingly assist the RMT.

Knock the crap about "We've all partied with RMT unknowlingly at some time, so we're all guilty." RD has stated in a previous post that the secondary portion of the list are for people who he has informed of being in a party with RMT, and they continued to party anyway. He said he excluded those who partied prior to any information with the RMT in the past, because obviously they didn't know at that time.


Hmm... some examples of how the List hasn't failed:

1. During one of my do-whatever sessions in Lower Jeuno, I was asked to help with the Asuran Fists WSNM by the character, Xiaoqiang. I wasn't terribly busy, so I accepted the invite and started getting ready. I thought I had somewhat recognized the name, but I figured I'd check to make sure w/o any false assumptions, and there on the list was his name, and then it hit me he used to be one of the Mee Deggi 24/7 campers in his lower level days. With that, I promptly disbanded, and he didn't get his quest done that day. Heck, he didn't even get it done the next week, as he was shouting for it again. I'm sure he has it by now, and although a week / two weeks may not be long, but that's one RMT scum I didn't help.

More informed WHMs in Jeuno will refuse teleports to the RMT, forcing them to raise their prices for a mere Dem/Holla/Mea to 10k and even 15k. Usually around that point someone will probably take it, or they just give up. Delaying them even 10 minutes to whatever NM/HNM camp they want to get to could be 10 minutes that they didn't make it in time to help with the claim, or 10 minutes that they're too late to make an MPK attempt. It may be just a small difference to make, but when many people make them, it adds up.

And for those who constantly talk about innocents caught in the crossfire obviously didn't read my two examples of how some people were cleared of any suspicions following some investigating. Either didn't care to read it or failed to come up with a counterargument to the examples.

And here's the part where I can tell you that since you're not on Seraph, you're not qualified to comment. The list is useless you say, but where are you on the server to see how it works amongst individual players and HNMLS's? You say it won't work because of your opinion of the List and what it stands for, whereas I'm on the server interacting with other players and keep occasional tabs on RMT when needed. You think you know what goes on. I know.

Yeah.... your argument fails.

[ikkleste]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Still i think asking people to drop a party (maybe their only invite for the night costing them 12000exp) in order to cause a gilsellers party to have to stop and seek a replacement for half an hour costing them maybe 2000 exp, is a bit much, especially when you consider to that person you are some nobody stranger.

I'd still like answers to my questions by the way (i don't know if they were ignored or just unnoticed).

1) Is any disgression used when adding people to the list? If someone doesn't know any better should they still be added?

Or is it the case that a level 11 war/nothing partying with an unknown gilseller without even understanding provoke let alone the impact of RMT on the HNM scene and the world economy should be treated the same as a lvl 75 with an established history of partying with gilsellers? You say it's up to people to decide how they treat the people on the list... yet without this info i can't see how people can make a fair assessment... so either you want people to treat the whole list as the newbie (i'd guess at doing nothing to the poor guy) in which case why have that section of the list at all? or you want to treat them all as the level 75 regular GS befriender, which is hardly fair in the guy who has no clue what you are talking about.

2) if you can't direct them to the list, or advise them how to be removed through some communication problem (i.e. they /blist you, or are not a native Engish speaker) would you still add them?

3) (Not phrased as a question in my original post but aluded to)
If someone thinks you are nothing more than a jumped up bossy boots high level telling them who to party and not party with and tells you to get bent, doesn't note down the address of the list, maybe even forgets all about your encounter and list altogether, then later feels the pinch of slow invites from the fact they are on the list and you've dragger their name through the mud, how are they supposed to get their name cleared?

Bear in mind they may not even realise the slow invites are due to your list, it's not like they get a reminder everytime someone passes over them for a party bcause their name is on the list.


I'm trying to not go over old ground, but i'd appreciate you answering these questions.

[samarium]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

This whole idea of a list of gilsellers is just ridiculous. In every way.

You've got proof? What proof? You've got suspicions. Unless you have access to mailbox history and IGE's sales records, you have nothing except a desire to cause problems for people for no good reason.

It's like the digital Spanish Inquisition for geeks. Ya know, go around and torture people 'cause you have some ethereal proof that they're bad and evil and nasty. Compounding the bullcrap is the stipulation that you can be redeemed by admitting you're a sinner.

The first person that sends me a "you're partied with an RMT" tell is getting blacklisted so fast they'll wind up with rugburn.

-sam

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'd still like answers to my questions by the way (i don't know if they were ignored or just unnoticed).

1) Is any disgression used when adding people to the list? If someone doesn't know any better should they still be added?

For me, no. I don't add people to the list if they don't know any better. In certain cases, (i.e. Gimya, Chrismeng, Flowers, etc.) where people are PTing with notorious RMT who I've had the joy of being MPK'd or had claim stolen and CFH'd, then I'll say something.

In truth, the amount of 'people who PT with RMT' is much, much higher than the actual names in that list. Not many people bother reporting it. I don't to be honest, unless it's horribly obvious it's happening which is rare. I don't use it much either, I usually only use the RMT section. But I still think it serves it's purpose, since if I need a tank and one of them I have seen in RMT PT's, I'll take the other one automatically.

2) if you can't direct them to the list, or advise them how to be removed through some communication problem (i.e. they /blist you, or are not a native Engish speaker) would you still add them?

If I can't direct them to the list, or they're not a native english speaker (i.e. JP or EU), I don't bother. I doubt they have a clue about this place, and taking the time to explain it wouldn't probably work anyway; however, RMT is a universal word/problem, and I find most JP/EU leave pretty quick once they figure it out for themselves. If they /blist me because they're being a jerk about it, then I might.

3) (Not phrased as a question in my original post but aluded to)
If someone thinks you are nothing more than a jumped up bossy boots high level telling them who to party and not party with and tells you to get bent, doesn't note down the address of the list, maybe even forgets all about your encounter and list altogether, then later feels the pinch of slow invites from the fact they are on the list and you've dragger their name through the mud, how are they supposed to get their name cleared?

You can usually tell pretty quick if the guy/girl's an idiot when you let them know. If you let them know politely, they usually listen and try to figure it out for themselves by talking to that person and doing their own investigation. If they leap out right away and react by ">> STFU dood, i dun f**king care if they RMT i was lfg for 2 hrs >.< maybe i'll buy gil to piss U off so FO." then chances are they will see their names on the list.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the 'leave in 10 mins or your name is mud' part... I'm pretty bad at keeping track of time as it is (damn game). But if they're there half-hour or an hour later, and they were dicks/bitches about it, I'll probably submit their names. This is all assuming I noticed in the first place - which I don't often enough.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

It's like the digital Spanish Inquisition for geeks.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

You've got proof? What proof? You've got suspicions. Unless you have access to mailbox history and IGE's sales records, you have nothing except a desire to cause problems for people for no good reason.

It's like the digital Spanish Inquisition for geeks. Ya know, go around and torture people 'cause you have some ethereal proof that they're bad and evil and nasty. Compounding the bullcrap is the stipulation that you can be redeemed by admitting you're a sinner.

The first person that sends me a "you're partied with an RMT" tell is getting blacklisted so fast they'll wind up with rugburn.

-sam

Another uneducated remark incorrectly equating RL atrocities to this situation in a game. I've interacted with these RMT people, as has a large population of Seraph for a couple years now. We've been MPK'd, warp-botted, claim/CFH, etc. HAVE YOU BEEN HERE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN? Nope. You haven't. You know nothing, yet you try to talk as you do. The Spanish Inquisition? Come on, seriously.

Who's Gimya? Who's Chrismeng? Who's Mulout, Autoexec, and Coderiant? You give me their virtues and prove to me that they're misunderstood and really good people that I should help out and bond with. I dare you to tell me ANYTHING about them.

[samarium]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

Another uneducated remark incorrectly equating RL atrocities to this situation in a game. I've interacted with these RMT people, as has a large population of Seraph for a couple years now. We've been MPK'd, warp-botted, claim/CFH, etc. HAVE YOU BEEN HERE TO SEE THAT HAPPEN? Nope. You haven't. You know nothing, yet you try to talk as you do. The Spanish Inquisition? Come on, seriously.

Who's Gimya? Who's Chrismeng? Who's Mulout, Autoexec, and Coderiant? You give me their virtues and prove to me that they're misunderstood and really good people that I should help out and bond with. I dare you to tell me ANYTHING about them.

That's right. You can call me uneducated and stress that it's a game all you like, but until you stop doing the same actions in the same way as these RL atrocities have, gtfo with this bullcrap.

The Spanish Inquisition which you emulate and then deny may have even gotten some REAL bad people mixed in with the good - I'm sure they killed their fair share of thieves and murderers just through random chance.

You're ostracizing the good with the bad and then telling them to beg you for forgiveness? Sheer ego and indifference to the people who don't read forums and don't care about RMTs ruining this game is enough to make me want to chuck you on my blacklist right there.

-sam

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

That's right. You can call me uneducated and stress that it's a game all you like, but until you stop doing the same actions in the same way as these RL atrocities have, gtfo with this bullcrap.

That's what I'm telling you. Your RL reference does not equate to posting a list of known RMT on our server so that we can avoid them. We're not using it to hunt them down and destroy their character, their LS, and everyone on their Friendlist. See what I'm getting at?

The Spanish Inquisition which you emulate and then deny may have even gotten some REAL bad people mixed in with the good - I'm sure they killed their fair share of thieves and murderers just through random chance.

See above.

You're ostracizing the good with the bad and then telling them to beg you for forgiveness? Sheer ego and indifference to the people who don't read forums and don't care about RMTs ruining this game is enough to make me want to chuck you on my blacklist right there.

-sam

Not caring about RMT does ruin the game in my opinion. We can't do much about it, but we can do something, and in our case, it's doing as little as possible to perpetuate the RMT violations of the game that affect us all. I don't hunt RMT down and make their life miserable - that's not the point of this list. I use this list in case I see a dead one at their 24/7 NM camp and they ask for a raise. I read it so I don't teleport them, invite them, help them, save them, nor buy from them.

[Grizzlebeard]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

Seriously, almost 20 pages of replies and not one person posting who plays on Seraph has an issue with this list, in fact they all appear to accept and support it, which in itself speaks volumes. Now, all the other people who have such a huge issue with it just agree to disagree and retain your vehement objections in the event of a similar list being made on your world forum. However, it's patently obvious the players of Seraph want this list and as it affects a realm you don't play on then for want of a more polite term, mind your own business. Hell, one of the dissenting voices doesn't even play FFXI yet and therefore has no real inclination the detriment RMT can create to the game.

Now, how long before some genius comes back with the, "You're not on Seraph, don't tell me what to do, you should mind your own business!" line.

[Ziero]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

From my understanding, the purpose of this list is to help the Seraph community by telling people who they should avoid. Well if that's the case, why stop at Gil Sellers? Why not add the names of known Botters and hackers. Not everyone who bots does it to sell their drops for real money, why aren't their names on a list? What about theifs (not the job) and scammers? They hurt the community and have a negative impact on the game, why not list their names too? Or the ones who actually cause Gil selling, Gil Buyers. Why not list the names of the known gil/account buyers so people know to avoid them making their purchases useless? And what about the general Asses that play this game, the ones that harrass people, MPK and , treat everyone like crap because they think they know it all, shouldn't they be avoided too?

Hell why we're at it, why stop at listing the names of people who Pt'd with Gil Sellers. Why not list the names of the people who partied with people who partied with Gil Sellers? The list is meant to prevent Gil sellers from progressing correct? And listing the names of those who help sellers is to prevent those people from progressing as punishment for helping sellers, so why not list the names of those who help people who help sellers? I mean it's kind of pointless to try and punish people for helping sellers when you don't actually do anything to punish them. If I help a gil seller lvl and you put me on the list but I still get pts, doesn't that mean that part of the list failed?

Good intention, horrible excecution, questionable motives. That pretty much sums up this list. If this were truely an attempt to help all player on Seraph it should have a lot more then just Gil sellers who engage in end game activities. It should include everything else I listed as those people are just as bad, if not worse, the sellers. The thing is, if you were to include the MPKers and harassers, the OP's name would be on there too as he's already admited to harassing other players.

And in the end, the list does nothing to stop Sellers. The fact the list is so long should prove that. They still get endgame and cause their problems, while you can do nothing but jot down their names and hope to one day say 'NO U' when one name on that list is in need of help. They'll get there list or no because as you see, there's plenty of them.

Personally, much like most people here, I don't think the Seller list is a bad thing but the 'associates with sellers' part is. Especially when a Botter/Stealer/Scammer/MPKer/Griefer list would be FAR more helpful of who you should avoid. There are 'legitimate' players who are just as bad, and even worse then Sellers who cause other players in game grief and problems. I think a list of THEIR names would be far more useful then a list of people who pt'd with sellers, accidental or not.


P.S. To all the 'You're not on Seraph so STFU' people. RMT is on EVERY server. Hell it's in EVERY MMORPG, I even heard Animal Crossing for the DS has RMTs, so it's not just you. I have friends on my server that deal with Gil Sellers. Get MPK'd in sky, have their claims stolen and all that. Anyone who has ever played a MMORPG for an extended period of time will have dealt with RMT at one point or another, so it's not something special to Seraph so you really shouldn't act like it is.

[samarium]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

That's what I'm telling you. Your RL reference does not equate to posting a list of known RMT on our server so that we can avoid them. We're not using it to hunt them down and destroy their character, their LS, and everyone on their Friendlist. See what I'm getting at?

See above.

Not caring about RMT does ruin the game in my opinion. We can't do much about it, but we can do something, and in our case, it's doing as little as possible to perpetuate the RMT violations of the game that affect us all. I don't hunt RMT down and make their life miserable - that's not the point of this list. I use this list in case I see a dead one at their 24/7 NM camp and they ask for a raise. I read it so I don't teleport them, invite them, help them, save them, nor buy from them.

The problem with RMT is the fact that the problem does not lie with the gilfarmers - it lies with the gilbuyers. You cannot find gilbuyers unless they admit to it - even the dumbest player on the game could have farmed his own cash for the uber gear he doesn't know how to use.

These measures - ignoring them when they need help, etc. aren't stopping them. They don't count on it, they have their own support system, up to and including playing 6 characters at a time. Death does not discourage them. Every extra monster they have to kill is more gil in their bank.

Your persecution of anyone involved with them - teleporters, people who party with one, et cetera - is the part that really pisses me off. You make them beg for forgiveness for being associated with them. I'm disgusted to the point where I'll come on here and fight with out about it just to try to make you see how imbecilic it is.

You're ruining the lives of other players for no real gain (see above about gilfarmers not being discouraged), and then making them humble themselves before you, you gods of FFXI, before they can be accepted into society again?

As ineffectual as it is it still infuriates me.

My reference to the inquisition wasn't about you following them around and making their lives hell (which, undoubtedly, a few of you do), it's about your witch-hunt methodology - "does he look like a gilseller? Then by god damned he is a gil seller. Persecute him!!!"

-sam

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

The problem with RMT is the fact that the problem does not lie with the gilfarmers - it lies with the gilbuyers. You cannot find gilbuyers unless they admit to it - even the dumbest player on the game could have farmed his own cash for the uber gear he doesn't know how to use.

It's not a fact that the problem does not lie with the gilfarmers - RMT had to occur before anyone bought it. RMT is not innocent, and they perpetuate these ToS violations - to say they're not the problem is simply wrong. Perhaps if we could stifle their supply and methods (like SE does with bans), people would be more motivated to earn their gil and not so discouraged at their effort. It's fair logic to assume so, and is also parallel to SE's efforts. And you'd be suprised how many people do admit to buying gil. Sad, but true.

These measures - ignoring them when they need help, etc. aren't stopping them. They don't count on it, they have their own support system, up to and including playing 6 characters at a time. Death does not discourage them. Every extra monster they have to kill is more gil in their bank.

Again, I disagree. Not helping them, not PTing with them, not raising them, not teleporting them IS slowing them down, if not stopping them. If I don't teleport them, that gives legit players a few extra minutes to gather their legit friends at an NM pop. If I don't raise them, it gives legit players a chance at an NM they've been camping. Thief's Knife is a perfect example: I see alot of THF's camping that NM right along side RMT who have the knife on them. Know why they do this? To stifle supply so people will buy from them (as much as I loathe to say it, it's very clever of them to do so). So I will do what I can to help legit players do their thing unfettered by RMT.

Your persecution of anyone involved with them - teleporters, people who party with one, et cetera - is the part that really pisses me off. You make them beg for forgiveness for being associated with them. I'm disgusted to the point where I'll come on here and fight with out about it just to try to make you see how imbecilic it is.

The term Persecution is a little excessive, don't you think? We're not acting against RMT because of their religion, race, gender, or sexual orientation. We're doing our part as players to fight the ToS violation of RMT and their tactics against legit players, and for those who willingly assist them.

You're ruining the lives of other players for no real gain (see above about gilfarmers not being discouraged), and then making them humble themselves before you, you gods of FFXI, before they can be accepted into society again?

As ineffectual as it is it still infuriates me.

No, RMT is ruining our gameplay. The rest of this comment to too dramatic to reasonably answer (although it's kinda funny). I can see you're infuriated.

My reference to the inquisition wasn't about you following them around and making their lives hell (which, undoubtedly, a few of you do), it's about your witch-hunt methodology - "does he look like a gilseller? Then by god damned he is a gil seller. Persecute him!!!"

-sam

Wrong. In every sentence here - wrong. Your reference is wrong, we don't follow them around (they follow us actually to harass us) as you incorrectly assume without any knowledge whatsoever, we don't judge by looks, and we don't persecute them.

[ikkleste]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

For me, no. I don't add people to the list if they don't know any better. In certain cases, (i.e. Gimya, Chrismeng, Flowers, etc.) where people are PTing with notorious RMT who I've had the joy of being MPK'd or had claim stolen and CFH'd, then I'll say something.

In truth, the amount of 'people who PT with RMT' is much, much higher than the actual names in that list. Not many people bother reporting it. I don't to be honest, unless it's horribly obvious it's happening which is rare. I don't use it much either, I usually only use the RMT section. But I still think it serves it's purpose, since if I need a tank and one of them I have seen in RMT PT's, I'll take the other one automatically.

well if the list isn't close to exhaustive then why bother, if there are hundreds who party with gilsellers, and you got a couple of dozen listed. How will that slow GSs down? It's not like you've even picked out the worst offenders by the look of things, simply those who got unlucky, and happened to choose the wrong party by mistake (and yes still refuse to drop on the whim of someone else). Why punish some random guy who's just got unlucky with his party mates?

You can usually tell pretty quick if the guy/girl's an idiot when you let them know. If you let them know politely, they usually listen and try to figure it out for themselves by talking to that person and doing their own investigation. If they leap out right away and react by ">> STFU dood, i dun f**king care if they RMT i was lfg for 2 hrs >.< maybe i'll buy gil to piss U off so FO." then chances are they will see their names on the list.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the 'leave in 10 mins or your name is mud' part... I'm pretty bad at keeping track of time as it is (damn game). But if they're there half-hour or an hour later, and they were dicks/bitches about it, I'll probably submit their names. This is all assuming I noticed in the first place - which I don't often enough.

but my question 3) was actually
what if someone doesn't pay attention to you at the time, doesn't note the URL, and later regrets it? Or ignores you at the time, and then doesn't realise they are being bullied out later, they'll be suffering from a list they are only vaguely aware of, Even if they repent (in a move totally unmotivated by the list) and start to hate RMT with every inch of their body they would still suffer from being on the list, continuing to be punished, even though they have changed their ways, maybe without even realising, and certainly not knowing how to do anything about it.

Running Demon, made a big deal about people being able to get off the list, but they can only do so if they listened to you in the first place.

[Ziero]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

Well in all fairness, it's almost easy to identify a Seller. It's the people who are alwasy on, in one spot, day in and day out for months and months and months on end with no real improvment on their personal status. Though it's still not 100% it's 'good enough' to be very wary of them. Unless you actually talk to them that is.

Most people don't seem to care about the actual seller list, and for an understandable reason. It's the 'they pted with a seller' list that bugs most people as that's the will of one person being imposed onto another. Sending someone a /tell then adding them to a list and then harassing them for not complying to you is a bit extremist. And don't say 'that's not what it's for' because that's exactly what happened in the story told by the OP himself.

You have every right to make your lists, you even have the right to post it here via the admin's consent, hell you even have the right to ignore these people in game and refuse to ever do anything to even remotely resemble assisting them. But what you do NOT have the right to do is actively harrass these players in the game, no matter what they do. You do not have the right to MPK, you do not have the right to screw up their Exp, you do not have the right to make them beg for forgiveness and you do NOT have the right to go around trying to bully people out of pts. Nothing you can say gives you the right to actively harrass other players.

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with &quot;The List&quot;

well if the list isn't close to exhaustive then why bother, if there are hundreds who party with gilsellers, and you got a couple of dozen listed. How will that slow GSs down? It's not like you've even picked out the worst offenders by the look of things, simply those who got unlucky, and happened to choose the wrong party by mistake (and yes still refuse to drop on the whim of someone else). Why punish some random guy who's just got unlucky with his party mates?

Actually, my submission to the list wasn't some unlucky guy. It was about PTing with the most infamous RMT on our server - Gimya. Gimya runs a LS called Riverslake (may have changed names now), and if you research our server boards, you would find several threads about them and their actions. So in effect, I did choose the worst offender.

but my question 3) was actually
what if someone doesn't pay attention to you at the time, doesn't note the URL, and later regrets it? Or ignores you at the time, and then doesn't realise they are being bullied out later, they'll be suffering from a list they are only vaguely aware of, Even if they repent (in a move totally unmotivated by the list) and start to hate RMT with every inch of their body they would still suffer from being on the list, continuing to be punished, even though they have changed their ways, maybe without even realising, and certainly not knowing how to do anything about it.

Running Demon, made a big deal about people being able to get off the list, but they can only do so if they listened to you in the first place.

If someone hated RMT with every inch of their body, and was told they're in a PT with RMT, don't you think they'd react accordingly? If they hated RMT as you say, they would proabably listen. Furthermore, if they hate RMT, they'll know (in the case I was involved in) who they are.