Greivances with "The List"

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

There, took bullets out of gun for you people by popular request. The feel free to MPK part has been removed. Never mind the bullets were blanks since there are only a handful of places where MPK is possible now. But it has been removed, by popular demand.

Thank you.

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

There, took bullets out of gun for you people by popular request. The feel free to MPK part has been removed. Never mind the bullets were blanks since there are only a handful of places where MPK is possible now. But it has been removed, by popular demand.

I'm happy now, thanks.

Amovorite- When I clicked reply your post wasnt up but it took me ages to reply because I was semi-afk. So I didnt actually see your post.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

This is why I feel the failsafe mechanism of letting everyone know where the list is and how to be removed is so important. .

Why make them go through that in the first place. My opinion on the list is such

The GS part ok ill give you that one. No problem with keeping tabs on known gil sellers.

But putting up peoples names simply because they pt with one is sooooo stupid. When im in a pt I am focused on what is at hand.(aka EXP) I dont care who is in the pt what they do when they are not in the pt. Hell I hardly make small talk. I want to xp. I am certanly not gonna take some persons word if I get a /t telling me that someone is a GS in the pt. I dont know you. and in my opinion Takeing the time to watch these people and go to wherever they are and see who they are partying with is a bit crazy.

So why should i take the word of a "crazy" person with nothing better to do then run around the game and see who is partying with who. As long as the pt is getting great xp and is going smoothly I dont care. Oh i guess i fall into your only careing about xp when in a pt. ummm... I got news for you. EVERYONE who is in a xp party only cares about getting xp. That is what a xp party is for. So forgive me If i dont do backround checks on every single person I party with to make sure they are up to your standards before I do so.

I play this game to escape RL Drama not to just have more when I login. The list should ONLY contain known GS Leave the others alone. In fact I dont think everyone would have a problem with the list if you were only listing known GS.

I am still a bit shocked that the thread is alowed to continue with the whole "Pt with gil sellers" portion.

I appreciate your cause but I do think your going about it the wrong way. I dont mean to attack you in any form, only the issue itself.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Here's the thing. You're in the exp party for exp, which basically translates to the value of your time. If you left the party you'd be wasting time, which is what you're trying to avoid by staying, right? But at the same time, a gilseller, someone we assume to have other negative qualities like being an MPKer or a botter or what have you, is gaining exp and getting closer to endgame as well.

Now lets say you reach endgame and get MPKed by a gilseller—not terribly uncommon, I'm given to believe. In the best case scenario you've lost an amount of experience equal to a significant chunk of what you would've earned in that exp party; at the worst you've lost hours of your time fighting an NM, along with whatever potential drops you can no longer recieve, along with the rest of your alliance. Huge loss of time, gil and exp.

If other people had been aware that said person was a gilseller and concientiously refused to party with them, that would be one less gilseller at endgame griefing you and competing with you, or at least they would have had a much harder time getting there. That's the ideal the list works towards. The scope and method are imperfect, but that is the reasoning behind it.

So for that reason, if I were in a party and recieved what I thought was credible information about a party member being a gilseller, I think I would leave or ask the pt leader to replace the person, possibly after trying to confirm the information depending on how credible I felt the source was. Now I'm sure someone is eventually going to point out that I'm a red mage, so losing a party isn't such a big deal for me, but that's an issue of cost rather than morality. Whether someone offers you $5 to do something you feel is wrong or $5 million, you're still accepting a bribe and compromising your morals if you do it.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

you used a word "Credible". Now to me someone I dont know running around sending tells to people " Hes a gil seller leave the pt or im gonna slander your name on such and such public forum." Is not a very credible source. and really thats exactly what it boils down to is Slander. In my opinion all this list has done is generate hostility and flames. Which has started to tear this community apart. Is that really worth it?

edit: I also never said that keeping a list of known gil sellers was a bad idea. My feelings are to the normal players who are to be branded and even harassed (you cant tell me they wont be) by others for being added to the list mearly because they didnt want to take the word of somone they dont know and leave a pt they maybe getting good xp in.

[Ryddr]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

edit: I also never said that keeping a list of known gil sellers was a bad idea. My feelings are to the normal players who are to be branded and even harassed (you cant tell me they wont be) by others for being added to the list mearly because they didnt want to take the word of somone they dont know and leave a pt they maybe getting good xp in.

Had an innocent been harrased, I think they would've been here and posted by now. Those who are placed on the list are informed beforehand. I believe this was said somewhere before, but they know where to find, and they know how to get themselves removed from the list. Thusfar I believe 'one' person has posted wanting to be removed from the list, and they didn't deny their actions...

...if a guilty person would post and be removed, why would an innocent stand to remain guilty? The list isn't flawed, only some of the earlier methods which have clearly been revised.

[e d i t] On another note....the only reason that a person would need to leave a party with GS in it is if they were the only normal player in a GS party. If it were a normal party with a single GS, they can easily be removed and replaced. If a person chooses to stick with a party containing 5 GSs and themself, that's ridiculous...

[Mog]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Right now the simplest solution (and probably the best) would just be to delete the list, but allow it to be rebuilt with screen shots and text logs ect. If that method had been employed we could just avoided 90% of this flame war.

Finally, someone who has common sense. You just summed up what could have prevented 17 pages of bullshit.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

That issue of credibility is, I agree, something that needs to be worked on, from my perspective as someone outside the server who didn't know of RunningDemon at all until he came to this forum with his list. For all I know, the majority of Seraph's players may know of Cole and consider him to be a credible source; I don't think I'm qualified to comment on that. Before I would personally use a list like this, I would want concrete evidence like the screenshot referenced earlier in this thread for each of the names.

As for the harassment, I think that's a seperate issue. I don't support RunningDemon's actions in threatening people with MPK, but that act is seperate from maintaining the list. Some people are going read over the "association" section and blow it off as none of their business, some are going to responsibly object and disassociate from that person, and some may take it too far and target that person for harassment and the like. How the list is used is the responsibility of the people that use it.

It's like the issue of guns. Some people might just keep one for a feeling of security, others might use it recreationally hunting or at the range, others will use it to defend themselves, their families or countries against legitimate danger, and still others are bound to use them for murder or some other evil. The item has potential to be used for wrongdoing, but that doesn't make the item itself or the person that provides it wrong.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

ok so your saying that if someone sent you a tell while in the mist of a party telling you they were gonna add you to some wako list on a forum you might of never heard of your gonna stop everything and write down the url so you can go there to complain about harassment that might not of happend yet? and to make them come here and plead guilty is so stupid. They dont need your forgiveness for nothing. Slandering them on that list for only trying to get xp is wrong.

Im not on Seraph so i could care less about how you want your server to turn out. And none of you who are seem to really care about throwing people on there who really might not know whats going on or about this forum or anything.

Just think about this. Your in a pt your getting good xp everything is going smoothly then I Send you a tell. You dont know me never seen me and I say so and so in your pt is a gil seller or for that matter a gil buyer. You ask the person in your pt and they say "No Im not" so then what do you do.

leave the good pt because of a strangers tell?

stay even though im sending you more tells threatening to add you to some list at www.someforum.com that says you support gil sellers?

Or would you just black list me and move on?

I am guessing you would put me on the black list and move on or just ignore me completely.

Double Post Edited:

As for the harassment, I think that's a seperate issue. I don't support RunningDemon's actions in threatening people with MPK, but that act is seperate from maintaining the list. Some people are going read over the "association" section and blow it off as none of their business, some are going to responsibly object and disassociate from that person, and some may take it too far and target that person for harassment and the like. How the list is used is the responsibility of the people that use it.

It's like the issue of guns. Some people might just keep one for a feeling of security, others might use it recreationally hunting or at the range, others will use it to defend themselves, their families or countries against legitimate danger, and still others are bound to use them for murder or some other evil. The item has potential to be used for wrongdoing, but that doesn't make the item itself or the person that provides it wrong.

Yes but in some instances it can be the fault of who provides it. Bars for instance can recive fines for people leaving their buisness drunk and then driving. You dont think this forum has any type of responsiblility for giving people the information? I agree with you fully it is up to them what they do with it. but does the administration not have any type of responsiblility of what content is alowed and what might be done with said content?

[Yuanlung]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Had an innocent been harrased, I think they would've been here and posted by now. Those who are placed on the list are informed beforehand.

Not if I dissmiss it as a random tell from a raving lunatic or a griefer trying to take our camp and blist the person on the spot so I can concentrate on my tasks. When I am in exp, I am too busy to deal with random accusations from random persons that may or may not be true.



If I get a polite tell saying that certain party members are suspected to be GSers, I may check the players' reputation out on my own after the party, and I may decide not to party with these people in the future. Although, that's still my own judgement. I do not trust any random player to make a "do not associate with these people" list for me. There is just too much chance for abuse.


A threat like "leave the party now or I will add you my super duper stinkifying list" from a random person will just get the person blisted and ignored in my book.






(ok, so I got sucked back into the mire )

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Not if I dissmiss it as a random tell from a raving lunatic or a griefer trying to take our camp and blist the person on the spot so I can concentrate on my tasks.

Or what if the person is playing on a ps2 and has no computer to access the forums. I do know people who are in that exact situation.

[Ryddr]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Just think about this. Your in a pt your getting good xp everything is going smoothly then I Send you a tell. You dont know me never seen me and I say so and so in your pt is a gil seller or for that matter a gil buyer. You ask the person in your pt and they say "No Im not" so then what do you do.

leave the good pt because of a strangers tell?

stay even though im sending you more tells threatening to add you to some list at www.someforum.com that says you support gil sellers?

Or would you just black list me and move on?

I am no stranger to this situation. A few months ago I formed a party bound for Boyhada Tree. On the way there, while we were in Sauromauge(sp?) one of our members says something along the lines of, "I think our Nin is a gilseller." I didn't make much of it. He didn't sound 'credible' (because of the way he worded his statment). We continued towards our destination, began to fight flies and then the same party member (who'd been talking to his LS then entire time) says that he's confirmed the Nin to be a gilseller. This was only about 15 minutes after getting started in Exp.

The Nin spoke mostly in auto-translates, but didn't say much. Only what was necessary to gain exp. things like {Blind}, because he had no spells besides the elemental: ichi spells and both utsusemis. He wore Nin AF, but was missing some gear completely (his belt or back and his neck piece).

We didn't really examine him earlier because we assumed he was japanese, and we assumed he would be put off by /checks. At any rate, once the news was confirmed, the Blm said {Disbanding Party}. She d2'd us all (except the Nin) and she was resting to warp herself, but the Nin used Mijin Gakure on a fly, which linked more flies and killed her.

Honestly, back then I wouldn't have left the party had I been told (unless I knew for sure myself), but after seeing the reactions of the better-informed others, I instantly learned that GSs are not good to be around.

So no, I don't expect every single person who's told they're grouped with GS to leave the party. Depending on situational circumstances those people may not need to be recommended for the list. Simply those who are well-informed enough to know. Certainly those in endgame activities know. Even some who are lower.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

(example of someone disputing whether their accused party member was RMT)

This is a very good point I've been waiting for someone to bring up. ^^ What exactly would happen if someone didn't believe their party member was RMT and RD was unable or unwilling to sufficiently prove it to them? That person isn't knowingly supporting gilsellers, which is the attitude the list is trying to combat. They may even be against partying with gilsellers and just be ignorant, or possibly the accused member might not actually be a gilseller. Do they go on the list for staying in the party or are they left off for having the attitude that "partying with RMT is wrong" which I think is all you have to do to get off the list? I dunno.

Yes but in some instances it can be the fault of who provides it. Bars for instance can recive fines for people leaving their buisness drunk and then driving. You dont think this forum has any type of responsiblility for giving people the information? I agree with you fully it is up to them what they do with it. but does the administration not have any type of responsiblility of what content is alowed and what might be done with said content?

Mm, yes but in the example of the bar, the product itself alters the behavior of its users. I don't think it's a very good analogy, but even so it's been addressed somewhat by RD's removal of the "feel free to MPK them" line, which you might say influenced how people who used the list acted on the information. I'm not sure how the admins feel on the responsibility issue. If I were to offer conjecture, I would say they probably agree about responsibility for what they host, but don't feel that the effects of the list are worth the amount of attention it's being given.

[Lyceius]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

then you can see why so many people have a problem. I repeat I do not thing anyone here has a problem with having a list of known gil sellers. that would be both informant and useful. But throwing players on there who dont leave parties because of a tell that somone in the pt is a gil seller is wrong. In fact if it was just sticking to known gil sellers and not targeting other players the idea might spread to all servers and then people would have a list to check before going off to party in the first place. Slandering someones game persona because they didnt leave a pt when they were told to by someone they dont know is not fair.

You didnt act until you were sure. as most of us probably would. but not from one tell from someone who feels need to police the server.

Double Post Edited:

.Mm, yes but in the example of the bar, the product itself alters the behavior of its users. I don't think it's a very good analogy, but even so it's been addressed somewhat by RD's removal of the "feel free to MPK them" line, which you might say influenced how people who used the list acted on the information. I'm not sure how the admins feel on the responsibility issue. If I were to offer conjecture, I would say they probably agree about responsibility for what they host, but don't feel that the effects of the list are worth the amount of attention it's being given.

You make a very good point here with the analogy, However cant anger or other emotions alter someones behavior just as much? ever done somthing in the heat of anger you knew afterwards was wrong?

[Oregonaut]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

You make a very good point here with the analogy, However cant anger or other emotions alter someones behavior just as much? ever done somthing in the heat of anger you knew afterwards was wrong?

Which is why there is Murder 1, Murder 2, and the various Manslaughter laws. Any legal system must take into account the possibility of sudden loss of rationality.