Greivances with "The List"

[Pawkeshup]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Look at me, I am a BST. Where do you think I am in line for endgame gear? See that gear that is free-lotted? I am just above that.

And he's a SAM, francophone, and was refused entry and several more "reputable" endgame shells, mainly for not having endgame god gear, which was why he was joining in the first place. You chose to level an unpopular endgame job. As you say near the end, boo-friggin'-hoo.

Your friend is a victim of crappy HNMLSs, not of the system.

He's the victim of the elitist community on my server. He has no control over his destiny. He applies, he hopes, gets turned down. He joins new shells, works his ass off, puts in countless hours, and gets screwed over. He gets this no less than 4 times, while friends get the items they want, friends that supposedly respect him and his efforts, but refuse to help him get his stuff.

I am currently maximum of 3 Osode drops from having it. I have Haidate from a previous LS, I am a spitting distance from Dynamis Axe.

Hurray for you. Now imagine your shell dying right now. That was his life. Sucks, doesn't it?

Endgame is working your ass off, no way around it. Good for you, your friend took a shortcut and sold his soul. Tell that to the next people his RMT buddies MPK and steal a MG/Zippy/SC/Kirin/etc from.
Endgame gear is what you put into it. If your friend put it into a LS with a flawed rewards system, boo-friggin'-hoo.

No flawed systems, they were valid systems, aped from real shells. Real shells so elite that they cannot see past his broken english and his odd play hours to accept him. This shell asked no questions. They did not say "Why do you not have this gear or that?" or say "You need to have all this gear to be considered, because we have X number of melees already."

RD, know when to stop running your mouth about good players in crappy situations. Just because you are one of the fortunate few to eek your way along in a good HNM LS doesn't give you rights the rest of us don't have.

Sometime, you should meet him. You might know some like him, you know, the guy that will drop everything and run to help you, even buying gear to do it. The guy that never says no and insists on helping.

Shame not everyone say that in him. Now if you want to say anything further about my friend, feel free to PM me. Let the people alone on the open boards.

The thing is, he does have the right to decide whether he would party with your friend or not, and also to share his information and opinion with others, who in turn have the right to decide who they share a party or LS with.

Whether or not your friend is a bad person is up to whatever deity he believes in to decide, but everyone has the right to form opinions on him on what information they have, even if their reasoning is biased, twisted, or incomplete from your viewpoint.

And you know well that these "lists" do nothing but blacken people's names, and anyone who reads them pass judgement as if they were 100% fact-based. These are no better than BOLO lists. They have no part of these forums and should be removed. I thought flaming was against the TOS. What about drama-laden, political, cruel blacklisting based on flimsy word-of-mouth?

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Let me guess, your friend joined a NIN/RNG get all gear first LS, aka, a flawed system. SAM is up high on Osodes, Haidates, and Kotes in every HNMLS I have been in.

This is not about your friend, this is about listing RMT and those who help them on Seraph. PS, the previous HNMLS I was in did break as I was close to certain gears, so I know the pain.

Now, how can you pass judgement on me or the list, if you do not even go talk to the people themselves? You can't. Post me screenies of you talking to people on this list complaining, since you people seem to consider screenshots the ultimate proof of everything.


You are someone not in touch with this situation who feels the need to post on it, no matter what points are made against you.



Now, you don't like my system or something, have i wronged your morals somehow? Make a suggestion that does not involve removing people who have what was adequate proof at the time.

How does a serious player, say that helping those who will kill you and steal your NM is okay Pawk? Answer me this question, in fact I will answer it for you.

A. Your stance: He is trying to help himself get ahead and I don't care, he is still my friend and I will support him, no matter what he does.

B. My stance: You deserve banned for doing this. You are worse that RMT for helping them in order to line your own pockets.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

And you know well that these "lists" do nothing but blacken people's names, and anyone who reads them pass judgement as if they were 100% fact-based. These are no better than BOLO lists. They have no part of these forums and should be removed. I thought flaming was against the TOS. What about drama-laden, political, cruel blacklisting based on flimsy word-of-mouth?

I know nothing of the sort, as this is the first time I've ever had to deal with something of this nature. I'm afraid I must also admit ignorance regarding BOLO lists.

To address your other statements, it seems a great many people have done the opposite, reading the list and assuming it is 100% false. It seems to me that if used responsibly, the list could make a significant impact towards its good intention of impeding RMT, while having little negative impact. If used irresponsibly by those who have no qualms about violating the ToS, then innocent people might be needlessly hurt, however consider two things in relation to this. First, that any text has the potential to be misused and taken as a basis for action by evil people, pick whatever text you deem holy for a sobering example of that. If someone does so, doesn't the burden of sin fall on that person for his or her action? Secondly, the people who were of a nature to violate the ToS and go around griefing other players already exist on the server. If the list diverts their focus from one set of potentially innocent victims to another set of potentially innocent victims, has it actually had a negative impact on the game as a whole?

Flaming is against the rules of this board. In many cases drama is also treated as being against the rules, especially when it leads to flaming, harrassment, etc which are directly in violation of the rules. This thread is treading the line, probably has even passed it. But because I feel this conversation has potential to go forward, as I hope you and I are doing now, I have refrained from using my power to put a stop to the people going in circles on the thread.

Regarding "flimsy word of mouth" evidence, this is something I am going to attempt to work with RunningDemon to correct. I don't think anyone should be in the association list without a similar screenshot to what was produced for Saerael. People are free to do with the information what they will, but I will not be comfortable with it until the information is demonstrably accurate.


It may be relevant at this point to draw attention to the fact that I have changed my title.

It is likely irrelevant to ask, but why do people like to call me Taskmaster? That reads like "slave driver" to me. I don't think I've done anything worthy of that.

[Pawkeshup]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

First, the least of the issues. I call you Taskmaster... because I forgot the correct last portion of your name.. and then was called downstairs before I could proofread after the fact. My apologies.

Second, BOLO lists littered the forums on Alla, and are driven mainly by bitter, mean-spirited people who will leap on any chance to blacken someone's name. These lists aren't much better.

I sincerely suggest you investigate the Alla threads with BOLO in the title...

This list will turn rotten to the core.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

So you say. Do I not have built in fixes for wronged people? Do I not tell people the list site when I add them?

So you are in fact calling me a liar, saying every name I post has not been informed, and is not guilty of the offenses.

[Thrasher]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Right now the simplest solution (and probably the best) would just be to delete the list, but allow it to be rebuilt with screen shots and text logs ect. If that method had been employed we could just avoided 90% of this flame war. Yes its going to take a longer time to accomplish but it is a better method.

And for this to be acceptable the threating people should not be tolerated and is counter productive. But over all you would still accomplish your goals and avoid most of the issues associated with this kind of activity.

Lets put this another way if some one comes up to and says “Your partying with gil sellers if you don't leave i'm going to MPK you and **** you over.” I would have reason to be leave this is just some petty dispute and frankly I would just think your a asshole call a gm then and there.

But if you said “some of those members are known to be gil sellers you should leave” and give a example or two prove they are RMT, people that are doing this on purpose would probably end up incriminating them selves (and belong on your list) and the more clueless or people that just wanted a pt and got caught up in the RMT would be much more likely 2 leave or at least avoid partying with them again.

Now if you want this accepted by the community you should make a effort to appease the overall community and not just yourself.

(It is well know I am against the list regardless, but it would also show some needed maturity on every ones part)

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

The flame war is from people who do not know the server's RMT, and are not the people wronged on the list.

Sensitivity over truth is politically incorrect, not the other way around.

[Thrasher]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Quite ironic then You have said just as much as any one and still proven nothing.
The site wanted the truth and we have goten none.
So instead of compermise you just want to keep a silly famewar going fine. have fun with it

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

You're really something. I don't even know if you even have put much thought into what you just posted. My concern is seeing Dreams get pulled into something that they didn't want in the first place. Apparently RunningDemon's anthologies were sought after, not this "Bingo Book."

Seeing this, I immediately raised concerns over the legality of such a list, due to the fact that there has been hundreds of harassment suits filed in the past few months alone with similar situations (involving an MMO game and community at large)

Obviously, you fail to understand this, as all you've been doing is tooting this "pro list" horn without really thinking about what it might do to Dreams (This isn't Alla, so dont use that argument)

Wow, flame me because you're wrong? I didn't attack you personally, I just stated the obvious and suggested that the legal issues you raised were totally exaggerated. You come back and insult me like a jeuvenille.

You must be the janitor at this 'legal firm', since you know little of law.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Okay... really. One of the things that has to stop is that you people who say that RD warns the player about the RMT they're partying with and THEN threatens to MPK them. I already know that you saw that screenshot and that's what you assumed. Take note that RD first stated that he would add Terrence's name to the list, and when Terrenceanthony said "Don't threaten me," RD replied that he wasn't, and then told him what threatening would be. If you're going to use evidence against him, make sure you know exactly involved.

Of course the response I'd get is "But he states at the bottom of the list to MPK them." That he does, but that's for the people who have made it onto the list, and mostly for the RMT. However, I personally don't go for MPKing them, and think that part probably should be removed, but mostly for the reason that a lot of arguments I hear tend to fall back on that little comment.

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Now, as for why should people believe me. I am a level 75 BST and BRD who has been in endgame for a while. Anyone who denies that someone can pay attention to RMT and track their growth, is wrong. It has been a joke to track RMT, their LS, and their numbers for the last couple years.

This really doesn't mean much, I sure as hell dont go by level and rank in the game. The amount of lvl 75 players that I have met that know nothing because they've bought their characters is stupid. Besides that, even a noob can drag themself to endgame, not all endgame players are nice people with good intentions. Therefore, people can still question whether to trust you. They have nothing to define you from the good and the bad, not even your level or armour.

I never said I will flat out MPK people. I have said probably close to a DOZEN TIMES in this thread and the other that I tell them they are with a GS and inform them of the web site where there list is located and what it is for.

You're wrong here, in the /tell conversation you say:

'threatening is me coming down there and MPKing you'

Ok so you were giving an example of a threat, and not actually threatening? I sure as hell would of taken that as a threat if you said that to me as probably the guy you said it to.

You've also said in your other thread:

Feel free to MPK them at will and make their lives hell.

So yes, you have basically encouraged or said you will MPK. This is against the TOS.
You have commited acts against the TOS of MPK and harassment and encouraging other players to do the same.

Harassment by MPK, shadowing etc. MPK (inducing monsters to attack other characters), unilateral shadowing, continually sending messages or items to the recipient, or deliberately obstructing other players is strictly prohibited.

'The List' thread should be closed.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Wow... mere minutes after I make my last post, someone comes in and posts EXACTLY what I was referring to.

Ok so you were giving an example of a threat, and not actually threatening? I sure as hell would of taken that as a threat if you said that to me as probably the guy you said it to.

-- There is quite a difference between what he said and what you interpret it to be. RD told Terrence that he would add his name to the list. When he interpreted it as a threat, he was corrected and told what the threat would be if RD had made one to him.

So yes, you have basically encouraged or said you will MPK. This is against the TOS.
You have commited acts against the TOS of MPK and harassment and encouraging other players to do the same.

-- So if he removes that line... you're out of ammo.

[ikkleste]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Rright i've finally caught up with the end of the thread.... a few thoughts.



even a new question or two...



1) My main concern is whether any disgression is used in producing the list? Would a newbie with no clue of what you are going on about be spared from 'the list'. Surely the lessons of RMT's impact aren't in the manuals for the game, how is someone who's on their first time through the dunes supposed to know what HNMLS is let alone the woes that members of a HNMLS have against RMT? Is it fair to list these people at all? They may not realise the impact of appearing on 'the list' for months by which time they have no idea on how to get themselves removed, or may have even forgotten about their encounter with the strange level 75 who told them to leave a party once upon a time in their first exp party. They just find it hard to get a party.



2) Can someone be listed when communication is a problem? would you list a foreign player without communicating them in their native language first? If you contact a player, threaten them to leave or be added, then they /blist you before you can give them the details on how to dispute their listing, would you still list them?



This is more to do with the last few posts.

In the screenshot, firstly the lister does threaten the guy "leave or be listed" is a threat, he then says he is not threatening him, if he was he'd be MPKing him, conversley actually MPKing someone is not a threat, it's carrying out a threat at best (semantically). In the sense that the actual phrasing is confusing it does seem to come off as a veiled threat of MPK, even if it wasn't intended as such.



again with reference to Amovorite's last post,

"--so if he removes that line your out of ammo"

Well yes, if he removes that line a lot of people would feel better about the list, not only would they be out of ammo, but they would also feel less need to dispute the list. However he has not removed the line, nor has he shown any intention of doing so. Therefore no one who is arguing the list stands for MPK is out of ammo in anyway.



Another point is what does it really achive, to threaten people, particularly those who don't know any better? So say someone does drop a party and go back to seeking, maybe not getting a party for the rest of the night (i know for me no party for the rest of the night means no party for the rest of the week due to my playing patterns). Meanwhile the player is simply replaced in the party by the next person. So you've cost the GS (and the rest of his party) maybe 2000exp while they seek a replacement. Meanwhile the innocent guy who unwittingly got into a party with the GS, is down 12000 exp for the night, and feels unhappy and bullied. Are you really happy going round bullying innocent people, possibly ruining their evenings play in order to stop a gilseller making a few exp?







My personal feeling is that the list is bad.... i mostly have issues with the "parties with GS" section. As level 43 i don't know the name of a single GS on fenrir. I wouldn't know to avoid them. If some high level player started telling me mid party to drop/kick i'd tell them to get bent, then /blist add. Especailly if it was my dragoon which i'd been seeking for hours on before i got a party. I'd not be inclined to follow up and go investigeting some nobody beastmasters stupid list. But months down the line i might regret that and by then it might be too late to fix...

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Hmm, perhaps you are right, in that the threat could be percieved as being added to the list. However, the point I was making is that RD did not threaten him with an MPK attempt, as so many people are accusing him of.

And regarding that last line.... it's a bit obsolete now (with an exception or two) with the MPK updates and such. People aren't using that though as their main argument, but as something to fall back on when their argument begins to lose steam. And to use an obsolete comment to support yourself.... mmmm.... no.

If 43 is your highest level, and you haven't had any issues with RMT on your server yet, consider yourself blessed, especially since you won't have to deal with what so many others have during the times before the anti-MPK updates. If you have the time, ask around on your server various players at the endgame scene. You may hear a lot or a little about their encounters with the RMT, and what their overall opinion of it all is. You may as well even ask what they think of legitimate players who willingly xp with RMT and don't care. You'll also hear mix opinions. Some won't care, others will stick 'em in the same pit as the RMT. Everyone on every server has the same opinions as presented from both sides here.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

There, took bullets out of gun for you people by popular request. The feel free to MPK part has been removed. Never mind the bullets were blanks since there are only a handful of places where MPK is possible now. But it has been removed, by popular demand.