Greivances with "The List"

[Aeni]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

There's many different ways this can be argued legally, so perhaps your scare tactics are unfounded?

You're really something. I don't even know if you even have put much thought into what you just posted. My concern is seeing Dreams get pulled into something that they didn't want in the first place. Apparently RunningDemon's anthologies were sought after, not this "Bingo Book."

Seeing this, I immediately raised concerns over the legality of such a list, due to the fact that there has been hundreds of harassment suits filed in the past few months alone with similar situations (involving an MMO game and community at large)

Obviously, you fail to understand this, as all you've been doing is tooting this "pro list" horn without really thinking about what it might do to Dreams (This isn't Alla, so dont use that argument)

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

The one thing that bothers me the most, which hasn't been answered yet is:

Why does someone who doesn't know you, have to trust you are be blacklisted?
how do I know that someone in my PT is RMT just because you tell me so?

Not trying to be a broken record, but if you are going to add me to the list because I didn't bow to your wishes, because I dont' know you from the next guy telling me that you are an RMT, what gives you the divine authority?

I give them the site. Afterwards they can post and get themselves removed.

Read previous posts by me, they say this.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

The one thing that bothers me the most, which hasn't been answered yet is:

Why does someone who doesn't know you, have to trust you are be blacklisted?
how do I know that someone in my PT is RMT just because you tell me so?

Not trying to be a broken record, but if you are going to add me to the list because I didn't bow to your wishes, because I dont' know you from the next guy telling me that you are an RMT, what gives you the divine authority?

This is why I feel the failsafe mechanism of letting everyone know where the list is and how to be removed is so important. If this were to happen to me, I most likely would not take it at the word of some stranger that my pt members were RMT. However, if my decision to stay in that party were to negatively impact my play experience later, I could come back and say "Please remove me from your list, I didn't know that guy was really RMT and wouldn't have partied with him if I had," or otherwise state a position of being against RMT and not partying with them again in the future.

In the case that someone simply doesn't believe the people they were with were RMT, I don't really know where to go with that.

If you don't care whether your party members are RMT, then that's perfectly within your right and I personally wouldn't begrudge you for that, but I'm very tolerant of my friends. On the other hand, I think it's also perfectly within the right of your peers to decide not to party with you or welcome you into their endgame groups based on a difference of philosophy, the same way you might treat someone who's personality conflicts with yours.

I still can't get behind the suggestion of MPK, however.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Or maybe i'm saying you should move it to the SITE I RECOMMENDED? ZOMG LOGIC!


Anyway, i've been on topic, not my fault you aren't able to follow it.

btw Talal, i'll be back on MSN and my desktop in about 10 mins

How, how are you on topic? How can you say you are on topic, on a thread about bringing up the morality of The List, when you come on and for some reason say I should change something that I paid for and hosted on allakhazam, that will be gone when my premium expires on the 29th, and moving it here, THEN say I should move it somewhere else.

What exactly does the Anthologies, a BST community tool have to do with the List Feba, besides you slinging all the crap you can find at me in the desperate attempt to find a point?

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

What exactly does the Anthologies, a BST community tool have to do with the List Feba,

I'm not even going to bother arguing, you apperently don't work with logic.


Anyway"Please remove me from your list, I didn't know that guy was really RMT and wouldn't have partied with him if I had," is unreasonable to expect. It isn't their fault that they were added, it was the fault of someone who thought he should have control over their play experience. If someone did this to you, would you come back and beg for mercy, or would you get pissed about it?

[Pawkeshup]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Honestly, I wish this list and BOLO lists would die in the transition between Allah and here.

To the administrators of this site: Delete these lists, Delete any BOLO lists. They both breed nothing but drama.

To the makers of this thread: Your intent is good, and I understand your frustration with the gilseller situation. I recommend if you wish to make these lists, make a website, and keep it there. These lists are less than useless, they are dangerous witchhunt threads that blacken the names of a lot of good players.

For example, a friend of mine joined a gilseller HNMLS. Why? Because he got tired of joining other HNMLS's, working with them to earn status and points, then having them fall to pieces before he could reap the benefits of his hard work. He would attend every event, die countless times, help get sky... and he got nothing for his hard work. In no less than 4 shells. Most older shells on our server were not interested in his job much, because he lacked the gear he was trying to get in those shells.

Within weeks of joining the gilseller HNMLS, he was quickly being fitted with the best armor he could ever dream of. Does he sell gil? No. Do I like him choosing to help them? No. Would I do the same thing as him? Hell yes. After being so soundly messed over by so many people, he didn't care about losing any friends. He just wanted to get his gear finally. His best friends, like myself, still talk to him. But even people on my shell call him a gilseller.

So how do you label him? He keeps any money they give him, and any gear, yet he is involved deeply with the LS. He did it because he had no other way aside from repeating the same cycle in who knows how many other shells...

Then there are those like another friend of mine, Kazi. Kazi had millions all the time, and all +1 gear. He was as pimp as could be, thanks to being in the LS he was. And some used to question where he got that cash. He was suspected of being a gilseller by more than one person I know, yet I knew he had earned every penny. Plus, his shell was (and I suppose still is) one of the top HNMLS/Endgame shells. So his money came from that and his 98+ cooking skills.

So, would you, not knowing him, seeing him show up to a PT all in +1 gear @ level 40 and say "He must be a gilbuyer/seller".

Let SE find the guilty parties. Stick to playing the game or take it off these forums.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'm not even going to bother arguing, you apperently don't work with logic.

Dodging the subject. Nice. You still have not answered why you drug the BST Anthologies into this.

Anyway"Please remove me from your list, I didn't know that guy was really RMT and wouldn't have partied with him if I had," is unreasonable to expect. It isn't their fault that they were added, it was the fault of someone who thought he should have control over their play experience. If someone did this to you, would you come back and beg for mercy, or would you get pissed about it?

How? Go read The List. There is an accepted removal from list on this site. I do not lord it over people or expect people to humble themselves before me. I want an honest admission.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Aeni is getting sucked in!

Corrected grammar, and punctuation.

Irony? Definately.

Either way is correct, Cpt. Conformist, just as that extra little comma I tossed into yours would be correct as well.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Just a couple of examples of how nothing is instantly finalized in RMT suspicisons. Seraph used to have two RMT groups, the Kiss's and the Moneys. The Kiss group were heavily involved in the Valkurm Emperor camp for a very long time. As far as I can remember, there were nowhere else, doing nothing else. Just VE day in and day out. Soon after they were losing out to the legit players, a few reports of them pulling the Pld/Thf steal came about. After the VE drop was made rare/ex, they went to Korroloka and tried to hunt the Morion Worm for their earnings. Didn't last too well apparently, and their group disappeared from the server entirely. They were very well known at the time, and very well-hated. There is/was a player on our server named Kissmark, who at the time had some people automatically believe that he was part of their group. However, through investigating the situation, it had come to be known that he was not part of their group, and he was cleared of suspicion.

The Money groups were named Amoney, Bmoney, Cmoney, and so on. They were mostly a group of mining RMT, and for the most part they monopolized the Gusgen Mining area. Bmoney had been though to be one of the RMT, and with a group so alphabetically named, it was almost too easy for people to assume as much. But Bmoney was found not to be an RMT, and he was cleared of suspicion.

Many of you make it out to seem like people on Seraph just run around and throw out accusations without having anyone to investigate to make sure whoever is suspected is a valid player or not, where that's hardly the case. Suspected RMT are investigated, and those are almost always in the company of being Powerleveled like crazy by the well-known RMT or are in the huge RMT linkshells on our server.


Edited in:

Then there are those like another friend of mine, Kazi. Kazi had millions all the time, and all +1 gear. He was as pimp as could be, thanks to being in the LS he was. And some used to question where he got that cash. He was suspected of being a gilseller by more than one person I know, yet I knew he had earned every penny. Plus, his shell was (and I suppose still is) one of the top HNMLS/Endgame shells. So his money came from that and his 98+ cooking skills.

On our server, Muteki is easily known as being one of, if not THE richest damn player on the entire server. However, it's also easily known that he is a legitimate player and is involved in a rather successful LS from what I last heard. We don't run around judging people because of their wealth, as it's easy to make large amounts of gil with the right legitimate connections.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

For example, a friend of mine joined a gilseller HNMLS. Why? Because he got tired of joining other HNMLS's, working with them to earn status and points, then having them fall to pieces before he could reap the benefits of his hard work. He would attend every event, die countless times, help get sky... and he got nothing for his hard work. In no less than 4 shells. Most older shells on our server were not interested in his job much, because he lacked the gear he was trying to get in those shells.

Within weeks of joining the gilseller HNMLS, he was quickly being fitted with the best armor he could ever dream of. Does he sell gil? No. Do I like him choosing to help them? No. Would I do the same thing as him? Hell yes. After being so soundly messed over by so many people, he didn't care about losing any friends. He just wanted to get his gear finally. His best friends, like myself, still talk to him. But even people on my shell call him a gilseller.

Well then, your friend is scum, and I cannot think of any reputatble person who thinks helping RMT kill things to gain gear is acceptable.

Then there are those like another friend of mine, Kazi. Kazi had millions all the time, and all +1 gear. He was as pimp as could be, thanks to being in the LS he was. And some used to question where he got that cash. He was suspected of being a gilseller by more than one person I know, yet I knew he had earned every penny. Plus, his shell was (and I suppose still is) one of the top HNMLS/Endgame shells. So his money came from that and his 98+ cooking skills.

So, would you, not knowing him, seeing him show up to a PT all in +1 gear @ level 40 and say "He must be a gilbuyer/seller".

Do I look like level 40?

No.



Have I said that these RMT on Seraph are the ones every major HNMLS knows are RMT?

Yes.



People are not added to my list because of good gear as you seem to think. They are added because they are:
A. RMT
B. In RMT LS helping them.
C. Exping with RMT and knowing it.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'm not even going to bother arguing, you apperently don't work with logic.


Anyway"Please remove me from your list, I didn't know that guy was really RMT and wouldn't have partied with him if I had," is unreasonable to expect. It isn't their fault that they were added, it was the fault of someone who thought he should have control over their play experience. If someone did this to you, would you come back and beg for mercy, or would you get pissed about it?

As I said, I consider it to be a failsafe mechanism; something to fall back on in case someone does get wrongly added to the list.

My reaction would depend upon the circumstances and my personal philosophy. After considering my own position, I think I would leave a party if I found out there was an RMT in it. Yes there are 4 other people to consider, but I think it's evident that the consequences for said RMT becoming high level could be much worse than a party having to replace a rdm, or at worst losing a night's worth of exp. As such, if I were to find I had unintentionally partied with gilsellers and others had taken offense at that, I think I would respond with a statement similar to my example above.

As I said, I think it is perfectly within the right of my fellow players to decide to associate with me or not depending on my attitude towards RMT.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Read me before posting past this point.

My policies for addition to The List are as follows:

In the case they are seen in a RMT LS, they are immediately considered RMT.

In the case they PT with RMT:

They are told that they are with RMT.
They are told they have 10-15 minutes to leave/kick.
They are given the address of the List.
They are added to the list should they not comply.


Now, as for why should people believe me. I am a level 75 BST and BRD who has been in endgame for a while. Anyone who denies that someone can pay attention to RMT and track their growth, is wrong. It has been a joke to track RMT, their LS, and their numbers for the last couple years.




Now, as to those who do not trust me, or the others from Seraph who post here. The current WP open for Seraph is: 8501213939. PM me when it expires.


For removal from the list, all you have to do is say you were wrong in what you did. There has only been 1 person to ever be taken off, his admission is in the original thread.




For those who say my proof is not good enough. Go look for yourself then complain. My proof is what Kaolin on allakhazam, and PiNG here have asked for.




And for those on the whole morality of the PTs with sellers. Am I forcing you to read it? Am I making you not PT with them?

No, I am listing people who simply put put their exp over the ToS and all legitimate players of this game.







Now, any post, that asks a question I just answered, will be ignored. Any OOT stuff, aka bringing up other unrelated stickies on this forum, will be reported. Any new questions asked, will be answered.

Have a nice day, and for God's sake read this post that has just summarized 310 posts of whining and not reading.

[Pawkeshup]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well then, your friend is scum, and I cannot think of any reputatble person who thinks helping RMT kill things to gain gear is acceptable.

No, he isn't. He nearly quit the game prior to joining this shell, and even still took a long break as well. You have no right to pass judgement. Let's see you go out and do what he did, and walk in his shoes.

This is a game. Get a new hobby.

For removal from the list, all you have to do is say you were wrong in what you did. There has only been 1 person to ever be taken off, his admission is in the original thread.

Also, what sense does this make? Oh, if you admit you were wrong in selling gil, I'll remove you, but you can still sell your gil.

Like I said, worse than useless.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Look at me, I am a BST. Where do you think I am in line for endgame gear? See that gear that is free-lotted? I am just above that.

Your friend is a victim of crappy HNMLSs, not of the system. I am currently maximum of 3 Osode drops from having it. I have Haidate from a previous LS, I am a spitting distance from Dynamis Axe.

Endgame is working your ass off, no way around it. Good for you, your friend took a shortcut and sold his soul. Tell that to the next people his RMT buddies MPK and steal a MG/Zippy/SC/Kirin/etc from.
Endgame gear is what you put into it. If your friend put it into a LS with a flawed rewards system, boo-friggin'-hoo.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

No, he isn't. He nearly quit the game prior to joining this shell, and even still took a long break as well. You have no right to pass judgement. Let's see you go out and do what he did, and walk in his shoes.

This is a game. Get a new hobby.

The thing is, he does have the right to decide whether he would party with your friend or not, and also to share his information and opinion with others, who in turn have the right to decide who they share a party or LS with.

Whether or not your friend is a bad person is up to whatever deity he believes in to decide, but everyone has the right to form opinions on him on what information they have, even if their reasoning is biased, twisted, or incomplete from your viewpoint.