Greivances with "The List"

[Macht]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Karma is a terrible thing, remember this the next time you're in Sky camping god triggers against an LS such as riverslake. Then remember in almost all cases they were put there knowingly by a LS made of real players. In our case we had Super to thank, your server will have its own.

We have chosen to form a community that will not stand for this, what will you choose?

Taking action against is all good and fine, but some stuff about how this "List" is composed is a little disturbing. I don't agree with the list encouragment to harrass the people on the list. Even less fond of how it attacks players parting with gilsellers, you seriously can't expect players who've been waiting hours for a party to just drop out of it because a single stranger suddenly tells you they are bad and to leave.

If you don't have a party were they can get a fair trade out of it then you likely won't get their cooperation. In other words if you want the guy to leave them you better have a party that's going invite him and be satifiable for him. Otherwise abandoning a Gilseller party just to wait another 3-6 hrs for an invite or longer isn't going to get his cooperation. Like the saying goes you get more bee's with honey then vinager.

With that said knowing that tossing something like that would leave such a bad taste in the person's mouth it isn't right in the same respect to mark them as being as bad as the Gilsellers.

[Tsingtao]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

To be honest I do find it the same partying with known sellers is what has enabled them to progress so far. As for the choice of what to do after waiting 3 - 6 hours for a party when you find out you are aiding sellers, I find that a simple choice. I've made and will make it again, 10k xp now is not worth what we see in end game.

I'm sure you have encoutered what I'm talking about. The riverslake example is prime, here is an LS that uses packet sniffers, warp hacks and MPK tactics in sky and is ignored by GMs. The only reason they are there is because players looking after there own interests rather than the communities placed them there. For the chance to get the relic piece they can't reach they damaged the end game seriously for everyone.

Do you beleive that is justifiable?

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

If they do not leave a PT with sellers, they only care about exp and themselves. They are no better than the sellers in my book. They are pretty much saying that their exp is more important than the ToS and everyone else in the game since the GS are not hurting anyone at that moment. I'm sorry, but I do not see things like that.

[Macht]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

If they do not leave a PT with sellers, they only care about exp and themselves. They are no better than the sellers in my book. They are pretty much saying that their exp is more important than the ToS and everyone else in the game since the GS are not hurting anyone at that moment. I'm sorry, but I do not see things like that.

Part of the point I was making is I don't know you. You suddenly send me a tell informing me that the party I'm in has gilsellers and then demand I leave it. First thing that comes to my mind is "Why should I believe you". For all I know you can just simply have a vendetta against a person in the party.

Second is you are going to run into people that will state "I've spent my time and money here and you are telling me to spend more time and money stuck at the same spot without something in return?" Yeah like that isn't a waste of the other guys money. My dislike of this method is you're calling the other guy selfish for not leaving but at the same time you are being selfish in giving no insentive for taking such an action.

Only Hero's will take such a selfless act without a reward or near-sited incentive. For rest to encourage against an action some form of reward or incentive is needed, if they refuse that then they probably deserve that marking more depending what the reward/incentive is.

Aside from that providing more backing to validate your claim. Need something about the guy that can be presented to prove him as someone to avoid. Meaning in game, provided stuff here to validate a person as deserving that spot on the list. May not be of a quality I'd accept, but you are providing something more here then you seem to for the guys you are attacking for being with that party.

[nazlfrag]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'd like proof of Gimya, please....

/sarcasm off

I joined Seraph around november last year and have had a three month break, so I am still fairly new on the server. When I first came across 'The List' I ignored the part everyone here has trouble with, because guilt by association doesn't work for me.

AS far as I can see, or any player I've met can see, the list of RMT is as accurate as can be made by consensus. The only issue should be the friends of RMT, whether they should be listed and on what grounds they should be listed.

RunningDemon has decided on a method that works for him, check and inform the player(s), wait ten minutes, check again, and if they are still partying, add to the list.

Would you disband from a party because a random stranger asked you to? Would you trust a /tell from someone you don't know?

The gilsellers don't have some special growth on their head. 'So-and-so is a gilseller' is an easy comment to make, and the truth of the matter is difficult. Open admissions would be rare, as such accounts wouldn't last long. That said, the gilsellers are well known through their actions, and that part of the list is accurate as far as myself and other players I have discussed this with are concerned.

To demonize people for being friends with gilsellers is right. To demonize them for not disbanding after a threataning /tell from a stranger is wrong.

I would apply a three strike system. Inform them then put them on the informed list. Catch them again, it's time to threaten and move to the warned list. Third time, you are on the list for all to see. This would require a little more work on your part, but it would only involve splitting one longer list to three shorter ones, and would protect the innocent much better. Not everyone reads the List, or knows who the gilsellers are. It is only fair to inform them of this first, then the next time you know they are making an informed (or ignorant) decision to party with gilsellers.

Not everyone hates the gilsellers, fewer still love them. Most people simply don't care much either way. That doesn't make these people the enemy, it makes them potential allies if they can be swayed.

That said, I wouldn't want the List without the friends of gilsellers part. Those who regularly help them in any activity have less respect from me than the gilsellers themselves. I just want that part to accurately reflect their status with RMT, to list the regular helpers not just random acquaintances.

And for the 'Dealing with RMT should be left to SE, they have the reasources and the authority' people...
Quote Hamlet: "But I'd rather have some effort made to fight RMT rather than no effort."

BTW Hamlet, strangely enough the complaints about being on the list mainly admitted to partying with gilsellers, and just said 'So what?'. Well, I can't see how they'd have a problem with being on a list of people known to party with gilsellers when they have no problems with doing it.

Oh yeah, Cole, you might want to change the MPK comment in light of the ToS... 'Feel free to give them hell' should suffice.

[Hamlet]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

What does this long, dead horse of a thread hope to achieve?

I imagine if the community was strongly against the list, it might influence PiNG to change his mind and not allow it.

So far it seems only a handful of people are truely against it being here 100%. I was against it at first, but after reading Cole's replies and researching it a little, and after coming accross no replies claiming complete innocence (the closest I've come accross was a post on Alla using the screenshot of dialogue posted here where Cole comes off as an asshole, but the guy freely admits that he's aware he's pting with a gilseller and just doesn't care at all), I think the list has merit.

The list does have potential for abuse, but after reading everything Cole's written in this thread and skimming the Alla thread, he doesn't seem like he would do that. It really does seem to be legit.

I would like to see a disclaimer saying they could be legal players, and maybe better formatting (like making the names links going to where the proof is located), but that's mostly cosmetic.

I've always hated RMT and it's cool to know someone's doing what they can to fight back.

Don't work for SE? Don't have the right. Period.

I understand your opinion, and it has merit. But even with that, I'd still rather there be SOMETHING than nothing.

SE has dropped the ball on RMT. SE is the only one that should and could prove people as RMT without a shadow of a doubt. But since they let it run rampant, the only way something is going to be done is if player's take it into their own hands and do what they can.

Even the effectiveness of the list is questionable. Considering the RMT have large networks to rely on independent of legit players, shunning them won't hurt them much. But it's SOMETHING. Honestly, if everyone that hates RMT petitions SE to do something about it and threatens to quit if they don't, it would probably have more of an effect than this list. But considering that's also not going to happen, the list seems like the best idea to fight it that I've seen.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

If they do not leave a PT with sellers, they only care about exp and themselves.

Or they don't trust you. I know after reading your "Proof", I don't.

You are not an admin Feba, they are asking for a sane amount of proof, unlike you who still refuses to ask me for a WP and see the situation and ask around yourself.

What makes you think I think of myself on an admin on this site, or anywhere of great importance?

've asked you about a WP multiple times, which you continue to ignore, so either put up or shut up.

[Yuanlung]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Not going to take the time to read everything since what I did read was the same crap I have heard over and over again before.

Go back and read my posts

Can't help but chuckle at the irony.


On the topic though, if I ever get a /tell from a random guy giving me the "leave party or I will MPK you", I'd blist the person immediately for being a griefer and call a GM to resolve the matter. I guess that would land me in their little list if I was on Sareph. However, it might also land their TOS breaking (harrassment is against the TOD, last time I checked it) selves in prison, which might be fitting too.

Vigilante is not the answer, whatever the problem maybe. The list is not helping the RMT situation. It is creating a new set of problems itself.

The members of Ku Klux Klan believed that the African descendents were the cause of all the problems in "their society", and believed that they could do a better job than the rightful law-enforcement at removing these "problems". See how well they fared?

Don't take 'justice' into your own hands, no matter how rightious you may feel.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

So tell me RD, how is partying with them against the ToS?

So how did these people who party with Gilsellers, violate of the ToS, which is the only thing worth judgement.

Hell them farming isnt even against the terms of service. Unless there cheating or botting, what are they're doing isn't wrong.

Untill they sell the gil, they aren't in violation of the ToS.

Messing with the market prices, still not against the ToS.

Taking your Kirin, well still not in violation of the ToS

Who are you again? One of the masses who left Allakhazam during the RMT exodus? Oh, the delicious irony of seeing some of the anti-RMT zealots jumping on a new bandwagon that protects the names of known RMT'ers at the risk of naming and shaming one innocent despite the fact these people are widely known culprits and the evidence is supported with screenshots.

thats quite off topic, if you want the awnser, please feel free to pm me.

[Hamlet]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Can't help but chuckle at the irony.


On the topic though, if I ever get a /tell from a random guy giving me the "leave party or I will MPK you", I'd blist the person immediately for being a griefer and call a GM to resolve the matter. I guess that would land me in their little list if I was on Sareph. However, it might also land their TOS breaking (harrassment is against the TOD, last time I checked it) selves in prison, which might be fitting too.

Vigilante is not the answer, whatever the problem maybe. The list is not helping the RMT situation. It is creating a new set of problems itself.

The members of Ku Klux Klan believed that the African descendents were the cause of all the problems in "their society", and believed that they could do a better job than the rightful law-enforcement at removing these "problems". See how well they fared?

Don't take 'justice' into your own hands, no matter how rightious you may feel.

I agree that there seems potential for abuse, but I have yet to read a reply saying "I was pting with a supposed gilseller, had no idea, Cole threatened me, and then MPKed me and put me on the list."

The closest I've come accross is "Yeah, I knew it was a gilseller and didn't give a crap. Then Cole threatened me and put me on the list (lol Cole is so funny)"

I only skimmed the Alla thread so maybe there's one there. If there is, feel free to post it here.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Go back and read my posts

I never said I will flat out MPK people. I have said probably close to a DOZEN TIMES in this thread and the other that I tell them they are with a GS and inform them of the web site where there list is located and what it is for. If you don't take the time to read my posts, don't try to downplay my not reading some of the first 20-30 posts here when skimming them, I see the same thing rehashed over and over again, that I have answered over and over again.

I've asked you about a WP multiple times, which you continue to ignore, so either put up or shut up.

Liar. Where in this thread did you ask me for a WP, cause I sure has hell have not seen it. I have had 2 people PM me regarding WPs like I asked, and guess what Feba was not one of them.

[Macht]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

So tell me RD, how is partying with them against the ToS?

So how did these people who party with Gilsellers, violate of the ToS, which is the only thing worth judgement.

Hell them farming isnt even against the terms of service. Unless there cheating or botting, what are they're doing isn't wrong.

Untill they sell the gil, they aren't in violation of the ToS.

Messing with the market prices, still not against the ToS.

Taking your Kirin, well still not in violation of the ToS



thats quite off topic, if you want the awnser, please feel free to pm me.

I can understand his intent with it, just I don't like his method in achieving it. It basically boils down to people partying with the gilsellers are helping them to gain exp and with gaining exp to achieve higher levels to farm stronger things or meddle with stuff in end game.

Thing I don't like is he's basically telling the players that party with the gilsellers to toss away $12.75+ a month and in return we'll make sure that the gilsellers progress slower while you don't progress at all or even slower then them. Just asking for way to tall an order out of people to stop something they may see going on but other's may not.

The method in the end will undoubtidly end up catching innocent players in the cross-fire.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Where in this thread did you ask me for a WP, cause I sure has hell have not seen it.

Wonder Why.

Not going to take the time to read everything since what I did read was the same crap I have heard over and over again before.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

The method in the end will undoubtidly end up catching innocent players in the cross-fire.

It has not yet after god knows how long, so why would it? I have safeguards and inform people before they are put up. And like I said, the point of argueing over a list of 35 names, most of which are over a year old and more likely than not, half do not play anymore, when the GS now only GS-burn for exp with a few random exceptions, is just nuts. There is occassionally a PT with a GS caught and the people have action taken against them. This happens once every few months. You people are all acting like I am adding people to all parts of this list every day.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I can understand his intent with it too, just i was stating the obvious, how does partying with them break the ToS. I just dont like the ways he's dealing with too Macht.

Especially the association by partying.