Greivances with "The List"

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I think the Saerael shot was pretty good proof though you're welcome to disagree.

Unfortunately, PiNG's stipulation about providing hard proof of that nature seems to only apply to updates and edits. This is irrellevant to the morality issue of course, but as far as the thread's continued place on these forums, that is the lay of the land at the moment.

Edit: This thread moves too fast.

It really does. But I have to stop reading/posting for now, because it's bedtime for Ael (or past it, really) and I have some work to do in town tomorrow.

I still have concerns about hard proof for anyone on the list (and would love to open up discussion on that issue), but I will continue to honor the moderator/admin requests as to where I can discuss this stuff.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

delivery box. Clever, Tm. Knew about that, only think about it for checking mule names though.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

You mean my behavior, as in doing what I am doing here, posting RMT and friends with the proof on hand and required at the time? I complied with the allak mods on this too. They only wanted the who/where/when, and me to personally contact the people before adding them. I have done everything asked of me by those with power.

I do not deal with those who only see absolutes. You want absolute proof that someone is a RMT? It does not exist. You want absolute proof someone PTed with a RMT? Guess my word and a handfull of screenshots don't count.




And for the record, the real BST forum has moved here. All BSTs left on allak are whiners that I took away their guides, aka not renewing premium. Real BSTs don't support IGE, they wait until Citipati charms the RMT in Attowa Chasm, then smack the hell outta them.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

delivery box. Clever, Tm. Knew about that, only think about it for checking mule names though.

Yeah. One of the other mods clued me in to that a while back for some other purpose. Hopefully by decreasing the size of the list it'll become a more approachable task to acquire proof for the remaining names.

But I have to stop reading/posting for now, because it's bedtime for Ael (or past it, really) and I have some work to do in town tomorrow.

Me too. Drama + 1 am makes my head hurt. Time for bed.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Just because someone is PT'd with a GS does not make them friends or supports. Again, I raise the fact that the person you are speaking to:

1) Doesn't have any reason to trust you.
2) May not even understand what RMT is.
3) May be the first and only time they group with these people, or person.
4) Has no reason to be threatened by you, unless they admit to what they know.

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

OK so you have "evidence", I would not exactly call it hard evidence.

Saerael, fine, seems like they knew exactly what they were doing. Fair enough to put them on the list.

Terenceananthony, no way should you of but them down! They obviously reacted as any other player would when some stranger tells them there's a RMT in their pt and that they have to leave otherwise their name will be dragged through the mud of the Seraph society. This would of been my exact response to your /tells but I don't support rmt in any way. This person should not be on the list.

Anarchie- Aug 3rd 2005. Cape Terrigan. PTed with 4 other ppl on the list, Kemuel, Pochan, Xania, Nehterlynx. RMT was Gimya on the NIN levels if my memory serves me right, was in the gustav area of Terrigan. I went there and talked to all of them. They promptly 'called GM' on me, then I left after 10 minutes of seeing if they would disband and pulling raptors for the other PT and releasing so they could exp beter than the RMT, and added them.

Stuff like this.... this is not proof. For all we know it could of been made-up. I'm not calling you a liar but if you want people to appreciate the work you're doing you have to really support it. Get better evidence so we know that it's all legitimate.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I do not deal with those who only see absolutes.

heres one from the list

Nope, can't reason with me. I see black and white, good and bad. No gray area.

Hypocrisy+1

You want absolute proof that someone is a RMT? It does not exist.

Hipocrisy+2

Kind of funny when someone says one thing in one thread then says something else in another.

If even you just said there is no absolute proof you just defeated yourself, because thats what the people want.

edit : ohhh heres a new thing he put in his list for the people by association

Due to whining drama llamas, you have too click to see them. Wooooooo, scurry!

Nice flame of everyone trying to argue your thread, could you be more mature. Things like this just show me more and more your just looking for nothing more than attention.

And heres how your arguement is starting to sound

"I have proof"
"You dont know anything your not on my server, you suck"
"Feba has cooties (wait a second that was thrasher, but something close to that)"
"Polly wanna craker"

Ok one of these doesnt belong im not sure which?

[Ryddr]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I wonder...
had this thread been made by a different player on a different server...say, fenrir...
how would the native fenririans(?) react? The question being rheotorical of course.

(not that any answer given would be 'true', but rather a reproduction of what they feel about this thread now -_- )

[Hamlet]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well, I've been following the thread, and I've got to say that Cole's position is growing on me, mainly for one reason. I have yet to come accross one time where someone posted on the thread that they were completely unfairly placed on the list. Since they are given the web address for the list, there is no reason why they wouldn't dispute it.

If someone has an example of this, I would like to see it, but have not so far.

Also, it IS a grey area. Since SE is lax on the issue, and player's don't have access to all information, the proof is going to be by definition inconclusive.

Although Cole comes off as a cocky bastard at times, it really seems to me that his heart is in the right place and I think he wouldn't unfairly accuse someone just because of a grudge. If someone has proof to the contrary, let me know.

But I'd rather have some effort made to fight RMT rather than no effort.

[Raydeus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I wonder...
had this thread been made by a different player on a different server...say, fenrir...
how would the native fenririans(?) react? The question being rheotorical of course.

(not that any answer given would be 'true', but rather a reproduction of what they feel about this thread now -_- )

If it was as flawed as the list in question I would be trying my best to get rid of it unless it got SE support. In this case I just say what I think about the matter but don't go beyond that because it isn't my server.

But I gotta make it clear, if a list was made by some fanatic witch hunter about my server I would do everything I could to stop it.

Dealing with RMT should be left to SE, they have the reasources and the authority. If players really want to do something about it then they should try to change the mentality of gilbuyers, without them RMT wouldn't exist.

I understand the feeling of wanting to take actions about RMT, but witch hunts aren't a solution. Maybe a few hundred years ago people would'be been ok with them, but not today.

When SE gets enough solid proof about RMT they ban acounts.


What can a list like this do?

"If you don't disband from that party I'm gonna mpk you and add you to my list!!"

"this guy is RMT because everyone knows!!!"

"I'm gonna destroy your reputation!!"

This kind of thing only hurts the inocent people who get thrown into that list (without any solid proof), RMT and people who helps RMT couldn't care less about what players think of them.


I've seen many people been called RMT for the stupidest reasons and being labelled without proof, the thought that a list like this could somehow make it official is beyond logic.

But stupidest things have happened in this world.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well, I've been following the thread, and I've got to say that Cole's position is growing on me, mainly for one reason. I have yet to come accross one time where someone posted on the thread that they were completely unfairly placed on the list. Since they are given the web address for the list, there is no reason why they wouldn't dispute it.

If someone has an example of this, I would like to see it, but have not so far.

Also, it IS a grey area. Since SE is lax on the issue, and player's don't have access to all information, the proof is going to be by definition inconclusive.

Although Cole comes off as a cocky bastard at times, it really seems to me that his heart is in the right place and I think he wouldn't unfairly accuse someone just because of a grudge. If someone has proof to the contrary, let me know.

But I'd rather have some effort made to fight RMT rather than no effort.

That's all well and good, but he has only provided one screenshot that shows that a person understood that they were partied with a gilseller and didn't care. One person out of dozens isn't really overwhelming evidence.

Also, he doesn't work for SE. If he wants to fight the RMT problem, he should get a job with them. That goes for everyone else who plays and wants to right RMT as well.

Don't work for SE? Don't have the right. Period.

If he wants to host this on his own web space, fine. But if he wants to host it here at FFXIO, I'm going to continue to have a problem with it.

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

This is a direct quote from the Rules of Conduct for FFXI:

Harassment by MPK, shadowing etc. MPK (inducing monsters to attack other characters), unilateral shadowing, continually sending messages or items to the recipient, or deliberately obstructing other players is strictly prohibited.

I suggest the mods close 'The List' thread because it encourages other players to violate these rules. I dont care what you say about how 'you cant MPK anymore', we all know it's not impossible and it's still being encouraged in that thread. One of many examples:

Feel free to MPK them at will and make their lives hell.

Anyone who agrees with me here that Cole is violating these rules, no matter whether he thinks he's doing for a good cause or not, here is another quote for you:

If you encounter prohibited acts by other players and find that any players, including yourself, are severely disrupted by such acts, particularly when such acts are clearly of a harassing nature towards you or other players, please report them to a GM (Game Master) for assistance.

Lets face it Cole, what you are doing is harassment and MPK. These are both in violation of the TOS. Now you can argue why you do it but because you have no authority to be taking such measures you are still at fault.

I request mods to close 'The List' thread immediately. This may be a public forum where people can post what they like but there are still rules.

Edit: I thought I'd throw in an extra quote from the Rules of Conduct just to prove my point further:

Prohibited Activites.
The use of Game or PlayOnline Services to harass any third party, including other users of the Game and PlayOnline Service, or to solicit, encourage or threaten bodily harm or destruction of property;

[Danicus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

That's all well and good, but he has only provided one screenshot that shows that a person understood that they were partied with a gilseller and didn't care. One person out of dozens isn't really overwhelming evidence.

Actually, I posted SS's as well in the thread with people who PT with GS's. As much as I hated doing it, Gimya is easily the most notorious b@$t@rd RMT on our server, and he/she decided to camp right on top of us as if we weren't even there. I didn't say anything at first other than asking them to move, but after a while it was obvious they didn't give a crap about anyone else. On top of that, Gimya calls her LS members out to harass us while we're PTing. I have SS's of that too.

If he wants to fight the RMT problem, he should get a job with them. That goes for everyone else who plays and wants to right RMT as well.

Don't work for SE? Don't have the right. Period.

Personally, I don't subscribe to this apathetic line of thought. If I can do my part at least, I'm not part of the problem. They are ruining my gameplay, not I ruining theirs, and I will do what I can to fight back. I LOATHE RMT, botting, cheating, MPK, and all the seedy parts of this game. I don't know how you can ignore that with simple apathy.

If he wants to host this on his own web space, fine. But if he wants to host it here at FFXIO, I'm going to continue to have a problem with it.

I don't have a problem with differing opinions at all - I actually think it's an excellent balance that keeps alot of things in check. Heck, Elrohir/Elured and I disagree on this subject and we are admins at the same FFXI website. But it seems that the only side allowing for differing opinions are the players of Seraph who know the situation on Seraph, and are not disagreeing with who's on the list. I've seen many anti-list posters say 'we don't like it, so post it somewhere else', while at the same time they say 'well it's a free public forum, so I can have my opinion whether you like it or not'. That is hypocrisy at it's purest.

If it was a 'witch hunt' as you so claim, you'd see alot more (Seraph) people on that list from many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many end-game drama situations of theft, people hacking accounts, etc. And then, of course, the ensuing GIGA-DRAMA that would follow for their presence there. But that's simply not the case. People (from Seraph) attack RD all the time here (now) and (moreso) when this list was at Alla, but they didn't attack the content of the list, which would be an easy target if the list didn't have even a high credibility.

Edit: And for the record, I have never spoken to RD's character in-game, so I'm not one of his buddies running to defend him. This is my independant opinion I'm posting.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I request mods to close 'The List' thread immediately. This may be a public forum where people can post what they like but there are still rules.

Correction, this is a private forum with public access. Your access to post and view is provided by the graces of the forum owner.

As RD has received permission from the forum owner for the "list" to exist, you can only request closure from him, not us.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

To fallenintoshadows:

Strictly speaking, the rules regarding conduct on Playonline member sites are not as stringent as the use of POL services themselves. I share your concerns though, and assure you that we are working with the OP and the site administration to reach an acceptable compromise. Remember that a fair deal is not always one that one side or the other considers favorable, but often one where each party walks away feeling a little screwed.

I ask again that you keep posts of this nature in this thread. Your multiple posts don't really speed things at all. We're watching the situation, and we got your alert. We got the message.