Greivances with "The List"

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I do think that the idea is good. RMT is a real problem, and apparently it's really bad on Seraph. SE is notorious for not doing anything when getting gilseller reports, so I think it's good that the players try to do SOMETHING about it.

It's great they're trying to do something, but that doesnt make exactly what they're doing right or justified. Their action against RMT is seriously flawed and potentially causes more damge to the world of Seraph than good. They think they're clearing up RMT? So they MPK someone: that isnt going to stop them, they list them: others will still buy and some wont even see the list or care.
They can't be entirely sure that the players they are targeting are RMTs. However we can be sure that the people 'doing something' about RMT are MPKs. Two wrongs dont make a right and their pathetic attempt at trying to stop RMTs is a waste of the time online they are paying for.

They should leave this to the professionals and just get back to actually playing the game like every other person.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Now another person tried bringing up Byakko's Haidate, thats completly irrelevent. If you can't hunt your own, well tough, but you have just as much of a chance to get it as the RMT as long as their now cheating (IE you do have something called provoke for a reason)

-- I didn't try. I did. If by irrelevant you mean RMT using Sky mobs to MPK people hunting for triggers by training Detectors to spawn other mobs to link/aggro/whatever so that they can monopolize the claims and then sell off the triggers or whatever else they can while the GMs do next to nothing about it... then yes, that would be pretty damn irrelevant. Or crowding around the Krin pop point and waiting for the claim to slip up while the currently engage group is handling a summon so they can effectively steal it, then yeah, irrelevant. Provoke only draws the attention of one. It isn't going to save you from a horde. Or are you suggesting I or others should go as low and MPK them back? The point is that RMT are still getting out of hand, and some people are getting sick and damn tired of it. I suppose if you were farming a trigger and it happened to you, you just go "Oh darn. Those people MPK'd me. Let me call a GM, who won't do anything really, and I'll just try again tomorrow, even though they may attempt the same thing." While aggression towards RMT isn't the best thing, pacificsm is hardly any better.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Page claiming in threads where people are getting irate brings it back to reality that it's not all that serious.

Look at this thread - we've had RD doing his thang, everyone else doing their own as well, and really - we should chill some, have a beer and not be at each others throats, because truth be told - you, me, anyone else here isn't the enemy. So look for the humour and smile, because it's a break in the napalm (even the subtlely disguised stuff).

That's great and all, but I don't think this discussion needs to be brought back to reality. It's still pretty civil (for the most part) and realistic.

Hamlet - RMT on Seraph isn't any worse than any other server. Seriously. If anything, it's better in certain cases.

[neighbortaru]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Page claimed in the name of RMT threads everywhere!

Damnitaru - I'd been camping this thread! /poke Aer

yes, please stop this. it does not "bring it back to reality." it's just spam.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Those who oppose The List compared to the amount of people who actually play the game are a minority.

And same with the supporters.

And yes, I never was opposed to this on Alla, because I never saw it. "Blacklist" threads, I have no problem with, since they don't take a "PT with these people, and you get added" approach, nor do they typically add everyone in the main post, and they're typically more of a way to say "This person did this." than "This person is bad".

I still don't think blackliist threads belong on FFXIO at all, since they ARE flamebait (and beleive me, I have no problem flaming or dealing with flames), and FFXIO should be kept as a community site.

You want to know why I never posted a link to FFXIO before the IGE sellout? Because I didn't trust Alla-ites to maintain the air of maturity in FFXIO. Thankfully, I was wrong for the most part, most of the idiots were shortly banned, or never came in the first place.

Please, if you want to have a flamebait thread, take it to KI, or Alla, or as suggested, a blog.

Plenty of FFXI community sites are hosted on Blogspot or Livejournal. I don't think you'd get as many complaints about it if you moved it offsite.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Having a section of the list that is guilt by association is bad...
You are potentionally ruining the "life" of a good players character.
That is my only gripe, especially as a new player who has no idea either way. RD didn't answer my original question, not that I expect him to answer it now.


As a new player, why should I trust you over anyone else? Just because your are lvl 75? Just because you provide a link of evil people which you also (coviently) control?

Explain to me how someone who doesn't know a soul on the server, should trust YOU over anyone else.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Hamlet - RMT on Seraph isn't any worse than any other server. Seriously. If anything, it's better in certain cases.

You keep claiming this, but if you have insufficient proof. You don't play on Seraph, you play on Bahamut, therefore you accurately commenting on the status of Seraph's RMT would be impossible. That goes for any other server as well.

You're no where near end game on Bahamut, and I'm not sure if you saw any of it on Seraph, but a lot has changed. You downplay the actual existence of RMT so much by attacking our ways of dealing with it, it's enough to make me wonder what other motives you might have. You obviously don't share the same distaste for them as we do. Idealy you can claim that by not directly supporting them you're not actually supporting them, but by not hindering their progress what exactly are you doing? Letting them grow freely without opposition? That's a form of support.

If you have any better ideas to help us combat the RMT other than letting SE clumisly handle it, by all means let us know. If you're not going to do anything about it, don't argue when somebody comes up with their own plan that you don't agree with, espesially when it doesn't even affect you.

It's really annoying when the passive remain unspoken for until suddenly there's something they disagree with. These lists aren't unique to Seraph, so claiming ignorance is just a lame excuse. If you really have a problem with it you'll get more involved than just whining and moaning on a forum. Until then you're just part of the problem.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

it's enough to make me wonder what other motives you might have.

And that's where you lose any crediblity.

Justt because someone doesn't agree with the list doesn't mean they're supporting RMT, it means they find the list to be a bad idea.

On top of that, adding in the comment about endgame. Players of all levels hurt from RMT, not just people in HNMLS.

Also, what exactly is the list doing that the people opposed to it aren't? Completing locking people on it out of the community behind it? That's exactly the reason people are opposed to it, so what then?

What are people supposed to do about this list, besides ask for the administration on the forum to remove it, or ask the person who made it to move it to his own webspace? Go to his house and beat him up?

As was shown before, the previous RMT/Blacklist threads were on Alla, not FFXIO, so that's really a moot point as to why they should remain on this site.

[Aeni]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'm pretty sure this list is illegal per SE's ToS. I'll have to review it again and cite some specific texts, but yes, this is considered "Player Griefing" in many other MMO games out there.

I hope the admins and mods have actively done their ToS research becaues I believe FFXIOnline is also a POL community? That association binds you to SE's agreements.

FYI

[fallenintoshadows]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Ok firstly, seriously you're saying this:

You keep claiming this, but if you have insufficient proof.

If anyone here has insufficient proof it would be those that put 'The List' together.

You don't play on Seraph, you play on Bahamut, therefore you accurately commenting on the status of Seraph's RMT would be impossible. That goes for any other server as well.

You're no where near end game on Bahamut, and I'm not sure if you saw any of it on Seraph, but a lot has changed.

Right so at first I am led to believe you haven't read a single post in this thread seeing as the guy said clearly and more than once he used to play on Seraph for two years. Then you decide to contradict yourself by admitting that he has infact been on the server, making his comment on Seraphs RMT problem no longer impossible as you first stated.

You don't know how far he got to end game on Seraph. Don't judge him by your assumption that he didn't get to end game.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

And that's where you lose any crediblity.

I'm really not concerned with how you think of me.

Justt because someone doesn't agree with the list doesn't mean they're supporting RMT, it means they find the list to be a bad idea.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I know it seems like that's a harsh way to put it, but it's true, and though there's not much we can do we can still do what we can.

On top of that, adding in the comment about endgame. Players of all levels hurt from RMT, not just people in HNMLS.

You don't really experience the full sprectrum of the RMT until you're sitting in a camp with them face to face. The most you feel before end game is a few economocal woes unless you actively camp the hot items.

Also, what exactly is the list doing that the people opposed to it aren't? Completing locking people on it out of the community behind it? That's exactly the reason people are opposed to it, so what then?

The list is informative, in no way, shape, or form does it lock people out of the community. The people who partied with RMT and were put on the list were still active in their linkshells and normal community.

It seems there might be a bit of confusion as to what happens when you're on the list. TGM hyped it up to make you believe that Cole has some sort of super human power to control your experience when he puts you on The List, which is extremely false. People have done a lot worse and still remain socially 'ok' within the bulk of the community. The List is there for those who wish to use it in whatever manner they choose to use it in.

I suppose Cole could add in a small text warning people not to judge people based on any single transgression listed therein, and that the list really is just there for you to use it as you see fit, but there's really been no reason to. It just hasn't been this big of a deal on Seraph.

fallenintoshadows: Thank you for selectively reading my post and being genuinely uninformed.

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

At the moment the difference in price for ten million gil on Seraph and Bahamut can be counted in dimes.

The cost of bought gil is irrelevant to measuring the wealth contained in each servers separate economy. It fluctuates based on the amount available to the company, not based on the amount in existence.

If each economy really was truely unique prices would vary drastically.

And it does fluctuate per server because, get this, each servers economy is a closed system. No gil enters or leaves from any source other then the action of players on that server. As the amount of wealth increases in that environment, inflation will occur faster. Any given luxury item that is higher on one server then it is on another is more an indication that there are more people on one server that can afford the higher prices. Prices do not fluctuate drastically because some players talk to players on other servers. which will act in an inflationary or deflationary manner depending on the trend of that server.

The price of gil in RMT is no indication of how good, how bad or how much RMT influences that server. If it did, then you just destroyed the argument that it's so much worse on Seraph then any where else.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

These lists do nothing about RMT, so it is no solution.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'm really not concerned with how you think of me.

It's not a matter of that, it's a matter of saying "Hmm...you're working with the bad guys, it seems..." is a direct violation of internet debate rules.

See Godwin's Law

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Blah, blah, blah, blah...

When you're done twisting reality into something you can comment on we'll talk.

It's not a matter of that, it's a matter of saying "Hmm...you're working with the bad guys, it seems..." is a direct violation of internet debate rules.

See Godwin's Law

I don't actually think I've compared anybody to Hitler before, but how does my questioning the motives of somebody who's so completely against any sort of player-made solution to lessen the grip of the RMT on a server he no longer plays on come across as calling him Hitler, or a nazi? When is there any other practical time after witnessing his unrelenting objection towrards progess in the average player's favor to call him on why exactly he's so stubborn?

But since it seems you're looking for an end to the discussion I'll gladly discontinue when we're all ready.

[Feba]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Apperently you aren't smart enough to add 2 and 3.

Here's a hint, it doesn't equal 3, it's a reference to something similar, as in, not exactly the same.

Anyway, until you come up with something better than childish insults and the same accusations the list is founded on, I have nothing to say to you.