Greivances with "The List"

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Yes, I am not smart enough, how clever of you to see that.

Anyway, this is the fanatical need to be 100% sure that they are RMT that I was talking about. Pardon my language, but use your f*cking brain.

Tell these friends on Seraph to post then, tell me their names if you want.

And for everyone person who disagrees, there are 2+ who agree. Hence the 1 disagreeing person from Seraph who has posted and the dozen who posted agreeing with me.

This isn't CSI, I can't go get a paper trail for where all the gil moves on this server. Be realistic and try to look at it from my perspective. And for god's sake stop quoting and respong after every paragraph, it is a pain to read. Form a post stating your opinions and points with a beginning, middle, and end. Quoting the entire previous post is a little excessive.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Yes, I am not smart enough, how clever of you to see that.

Anyway, this is the fanatical need to be 100% sure that they are RMT that I was talking about. Pardon my language, but use your f*cking brain.

Tell these friends on Seraph to post then, tell me their names if you want.

And for everyone person who disagrees, there are 2+ who agree. Hence the 1 disagreeing person from Seraph who has posted and the dozen who posted agreeing with me.

This isn't CSI, I can't go get a paper trail for where all the gil moves on this server. Be realistic and try to look at it from my perspective. And for god's sake stop quoting and respong after every paragraph, it is a pain to read. Form a post stating your opinions and points with a beginning, middle, and end. Quoting the entire previous post is a little excessive.

I wanted to make sure you knew exactly what I was countering. If that bothers you, I'm not sure what to suggest. You seem bound and determined to ignore the points anyone opposing your idea makes with sweeping generalizations. I know that means that it's easier for you not to get tripped up by anything that you say, but it also means that you end up looking like an chump because you're unwilling to even consider the other sides of this issue.

You're right. This isn't CSI. And you aren't a cop. Even in this fantasy world that we all play in. You have no way of proving anything one way or another. So all of this is mere assumption on your part. You believe that you are justified. Many of us do not. That's the problem that is at the core of most of the disagreements with your system.

Nice math by the way on the "For every 1 dissenter there are 2+ who agree". Really. That's fantastic deductive work on your part.

I did you the favor of not jumping down your throat on your List thread (here or at Alla), but this thread is for the discussion of concerns relating to your list, so if you have a problem with that, maybe you should take your own advice and not participate. Just a thought.

As for naming my friends on Seraph, I'd really rather not drag them into this any more than I already have. For all I know, you might label them as gilsellers, or randomly MPK them out of spite. None of them come here on any sort of regular basis (or in some cases, at all), so it's not my place to put them at that kind of risk. However, I'll mention it to them and see if they might like to stop by to add their own unique points of view.

The bottom line is that I get why you think this is necessary. At it's core, it's kind of a noble idea. But it's a deeply flawed system, and you have gone far beyond overboard with it. You simply don't have the resources to handle this effectively and fairly, and as such, you shouldn't be doing it at all. As no one here can stop that, the next best thing is stopping it from being advertised here.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

In short quit throwing your little hissie fits it just makes you look like children.........

I totally wish some people would take their own advice, then we wouldn't have these same posts posted over and over. I hope we wont have people lining up to ask redundant questions while ignoring the countless answers.

Well, if you don't understand why we have The List, then you're not so in touch with your local RMT. This is a combination of ethics, logic, and above all experience; the experience of being botting out of an NM, the experience of being MPK'd by the ones who don't bot, and the experience of being unable to purchase something because the prices are out of control. I always find it slightly entertaining that those with the ethics and logic will be drawn into the arguements, but they can't fully see the picture because they lack the experience. I don't find the arguement itself entertaining, it's like watching a child trying to fit shapes into holes when he's got all the wrong shapes and all the wrong holes; no matter how hard he tries and cries he's just not going to get it. After trying to help countless children attempting fit the wrong shapes into the wrong holes, you tend not to care or give straight answers, it's just not worth so much effort.

If you don't have the experience, just refrain from posting.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

The thing that bothers me about this list, in general is, some guy on some server is labling people as "problems" because of a random PT.

Being someone new to the game and the community, i dont' know an RMT/Gilseller from a toad.

On the same token, I don't know YOU from an RMT/Gilseller or a toad.

As someone who doesn't know, who in the hell are you, someone I don't know, going to give me some ultimatum about when/where and who i group with.

I mean really, if someone is nice enough to invite you to a group for quest, mission or to help you get a drop or what ever, then why is that a bad thing?

Sure that someone might be selling gil, but don't you dare, ever, lump me in with someone who does that, I abhor RMT and will never willing participate with it, just answer me one question:

If i'm new to the game and new to seraph, and the only player I know is my wife, who is just as clueless as I am, why should I trust you?

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well, I think you managed to be just about as ambiguous as possible, Impaction, while still remaining vaguely insulting. :/

I've been playing MMOs for a few years now. FFXI, WoW, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, CoH, CoV, etc. All of them have RMT issues. Well, not so much CoH, since their currency is practically useless, but still. It's not a situation unique to FFXI, and it's not a situation unique to Seraph. We all get it. We just disagree as to what a reasonable response to the issue is. We're not stupid. We're just using logic and rationale instead of arguing emotionally.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

The thing that bothers me about this list, in general is, some guy on some server is labling people as "problems" because of a random PT.

Being someone new to the game and the community, i dont' know an RMT/Gilseller from a toad.

On the same token, I don't know YOU from an RMT/Gilseller or a toad.

As someone who doesn't nkow, why in the hell are you, someone I don't know, going to give me some ultimatum about when/where and who i group with.

I mean really, if someone is nice enough to invite you to a group for quest, mission or to help you get a drop or what ever, then why is that a bad thing?

Sure that someone might be selling gil, but don't you dare, ever, lump me in with someone who does that, I abhor RMT and will never willing participate with it, just answer me one question:

If i'm new to the game and new to seraph, and the only player I know is my wife, who is just as clueless as I am, why should I trust you?

That's a tough question to give a simple answer to, but I can tell you that whether you trust your informant or not doesn't have an effect on what's fact or not. I'm not going to claim I truely understand Cole's methods beyond what he's posted, but I doubt he'd pick on you if he can clearly see you're a new player. He's probably more concerned with the didicated players.

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

These types of list reek of a 21st Century version of the Salem Witch Trials.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well, I think you managed to be just about as ambiguous and across the board insulting as possible, Impaction. Thanks for contributing though, I guess?

I've been playing MMOs for a few years now. FFXI, WoW, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, CoH, CoV, etc. All of them have RMT issues. Well, not so much CoH, since their currency is practically useless, but still. It's not a situation unique to FFXI, and it's not a situation unique to Seraph. We all get it. We just disagree as to what a reasonable response to the issue is. We're not stupid. We're just using logic and rationale instead of arguing emotionally.

I'm sorry if I insulted you, it wasn't my intention, but that doesn't make my statement any less true. Maybe you don't care as much as other people, or just don't care at all, but you can't deny that there's people who do care. Or maybe the situation on Bahamut isn't so bad? I really don't know yet, but I do know on Seraph it's really bad. Unless you're on Seraph you really don't know how bad it can be, and thus, don't have the experience. Repeating my last point for the logically challenged: you don't have a character on Seraph, you don't recognize 90% of the names on the list from personal experience, so there's no room for you to judge. There's not much we can do to rid our server of the RMT, but we've obviously come up with our own ways.

[Django]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

If it matters, while I was still on Seraph a well known RMT "Chrismeng" called me a gilseller in a party we were in. Somehow I escaped the jaws of Cole's wrath, having partied with a gilseller AND being accused of one!

[Telal]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

That's a tough question to give a simple answer to, but I can tell you that whether you trust your informant or not doesn't have an effect on what's fact or not. I'm not going to claim I truely understand Cole's methods beyond what he's posted, but I doubt he'd pick on you if he can clearly see you're a new player. He's probably more concerned with the didicated players.

I completely understand what you are saying for it being hard for me, and not knowing how "Cole" (I assume this is a real name) handles true "newbies" leaves this question wide open.

I'm just hoping that the people who keep, maintain and submit to these types of lists, at least talk to the people in question before running off and blacklabeling them as bad guys. I mean, talk to other than "That guy is a RMT, leave the PT or you DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!" kinda talking. :D

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

the experience of being botting out of an NM, the experience of being MPK'd by the ones who don't bot, and the experience of being unable to purchase something because the prices are out of control.

The experience of crying about being beaten in a game and trying to come up with the most insulting thing you can. We get it, you want to feel big and in charge. You want to impose your decisions on others by threatening to brand them with same stigma. You're mad that someone is better then you.

If there was any ethics, logic, reason or experience in your actions you would see that it is not your place to make decisions. You do not uphold the ToS, you are just a user. You do not have the authority, information or position to make any determination.

But you know if this is your only way of feeling good about yourself, well don't let facts or other players get in the way of that.

I doubt he'd pick on you if he can clearly see you're a new player. He's probably more concerned with the didicated players.

Of course he won't bother with a new player. You can't make a name for yourself by picking on the newbies, it has to be something big, something sensational, something that gets people talking.

These types of list reek of a 21st Century version of the Salem Witch Trials.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'm sorry if I insulted you, it wasn't my intention, but that doesn't make my statement any less true. Maybe you don't care as much as other people, or just don't care at all, but you can't deny that there's people who do care. Or maybe the situation on Bahamut isn't so bad? I really don't know yet, but I do know on Seraph it's really bad. Unless you're on Seraph you really don't know how bad it can be, and thus, don't have the experience. Repeating my last point for the logically challenged: you don't have a character on Seraph, you don't recognize 90% of the names on the list from personal experience, so there's no room for you to judge. There's not much we can do to rid our server of the RMT, but we've obviously come up with our own ways.

The situation is bad on every server. It's bad on Bahamut. It's bad on Midgard and Ragnarock and Alexander, and Valefor, and Asura and so on and so forth all down the list. Seraph isn't particularly unique in it's RMT issues. Seriously. I played on Seraph for two years before starting over on Bahamut. I know what the RMT issues are there.

I don't agree with the system. I don't think it's just or right, or even very well thought out. And since this thread was created for the purposes of expressing exactly that, I think I'm justified in posting this here. You'll note that I didn't jump anyone's case in either of the List thread (the one here or the one at Alla), and only spoke up when a dedicated thread was created for that purpose.

[DakAttack]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Thank you for twisting reality into something you can comment on.

I don't agree with the system. I don't think it's just or right, or even very well thought out. And since this thread was created for the purposes of expressing exactly that, I think I'm justified in posting this here. You'll note that I didn't jump anyone's case in either of the List thread (the one here or the one at Alla), and only spoke up when a dedicated thread was created for that purpose.

When you have a good idea that helps us combat RMT and their cause feel free to let us know!

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Thank you for twisting reality into something you can comment on.

Is your position so weak that the best you can do is ignore dissenting opinions?

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

When you have a good idea that helps us combat RMT and their cause feel free to let us know!

Let SE handle it, because mere players don't have the resources or the right to take matters into their own hands. If someone did something like this in real life. Actually, when people did this in real life, it was never a good thing.

Yeah, it sucks that you have RMT on Seraph. So does everyone else in every MMO out there. That doesn't justify witch hunting and blackballing of players with little to no evidence to back it up (RMT are one thing, but those who party with them are another).