Greivances with "The List"

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

But all they have is your word that the people they are assisting are gilsellers. If some stranger came up to me and told me that I was partied with gilsellers, what reason would I have to believe them?

-- You'd have little or no reason, other than the word of the person telling you, which admittedly is rough to swallow, but generally we wouldn't have a reason to go around just picking people at random and telling them they're partying with RMT just out of spite, unless it's someone who has a nasty grudge, in which that's pretty screwed up of themselves.

But what evidence do you have besides these names on a list that these people are either RMT or willing to support them. You keep dodging the fact that you have no proof besides word of mouth, which is hardly reliable. I know several endgame players on Seraph who wouldn't recognize a fraction of the names on this list. But I can name at least half a dozen of them that know Cole's name and don't have a very high opinion of him or his methods. Why should they take his word that these people are all part of the RMT problem?

-- I don't recall dodging any facts of word-of-mouth in this debate, though if you could point me out to where I might have said it, that'd be nice memory refresher. And yes, word of mouth is rather unreliable, but in many cases in this game it's about the best one can get. Not everyone has a PC to take screenshots of dialogue, and not everyone on the PC is using a windower or whatever program to take screenshots of dialogue. And even then, screenshots can be photoshopped for those dedicated enough to frame anyone they dislike. So screenshots are more reliable than word of mouth, but not by much. The List is more for those who actually look at it. You say there are people who've had their endgame reputations ruined due to this list, but on the flipside, there are players who have been wholly unaffected by their listing. Not every endgame Linkshell in Seraph treats the List as a rulebook/bible/refrence guide, yet some people apparently think otherwise. The endgame linkshells who are so fed up with RMT that they contribute/follow the List do it for their own welfare. People listed as helping RMT can and have found linkshells who don't give a damn and are having a productive endgame existence.

This is a public forum, and I don't think it has any place here. If he wants to post a list of who he thinks are RMT, he should post it on his own server space. As a member of this community, I have an interest in what sort of behavior we allow here. As such, I'll speak my mind any time I choose about what I think should or shouldn't be here. That's how public forurms work.

-- Had you stated that this was a private forum, I might have agreed. However, you're right. This is a public forum, and anyone can post anything the please, as long as it falls within the guidelines presented by the administrators/moderators, which they and Cole have clearly come to an agreement upon, so regardless of yours or anyone elses opinion on whether that thread belongs or not, the moderators and Cole have come to a compromise, and it has been given the OK to have a place here. But as you state that you are allowed to speak your mind here because it's a public forum, Cole has the same freedom, and yet you would seem to want to have The List eliminated, thus silencing Cole from expressing his ideas here, and therefore contradicting your very belief of what a public forum is for.

As for players who don't frequent forums and they find themselves blackballed, I'm sure that not every other player is too stubborn to at least tell them why they are in the position they're in. People obviously are told, as there are players who have come to the forums, signed up, and their very first post was in The List, defending themselves, or attacking the accusers, so obviously word-of-mouth is directing them here one way or another.

As for this list being right or wrong.... there are signs that lead to both answers being correct. No system is flawless. Not a single one. Not even the ones that the creators of this fine game have made, and yet they are in place because they serve a purpose rather than just sit there and do nothing. Out of curiosity, I decided to just scope out some other forums from other servers and I noticed that some of them have Blacklist threads and in those I hardly see proof via screenshots. Just word of mouth, and even some are just one-line insults and accusations. I find it intriguing that The List gets singled out in these so-called witch hunts. Minus some variations in the reasoning behind them, all the lists are hardly different.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

-- You'd have little or no reason, other than the word of the person telling you, which admittedly is rough to swallow, but generally we wouldn't have a reason to go around just picking people at random and telling them they're partying with RMT just out of spite, unless it's someone who has a nasty grudge, in which that's pretty screwed up of themselves.

That still doesn't explain how this random person is supposed to know you're on the level. You say that it wouldn't make any sense for you to tell this to people at random, but that's exactly what it would seem like if someone did that to me.

-- I don't recall dodging any facts of word-of-mouth in this debate, though if you could point me out to where I might have said it, that'd be nice memory refresher.

I was referring to the general "you" who support The List. I should have been more specific.

And yes, word of mouth is rather unreliable, but in many cases in this game it's about the best one can get. Not everyone has a PC to take screenshots of dialogue, and not everyone on the PC is using a windower or whatever program to take screenshots of dialogue. And even then, screenshots can be photoshopped for those dedicated enough to frame anyone they dislike. So screenshots are more reliable than word of mouth, but not by much. The List is more for those who actually look at it.

So if there is no way of reliably verifying any of these names, then what is the point of having a list at all?

You say there are people who've had their endgame reputations ruined due to this list

I've said no such thing.

Not every endgame Linkshell in Seraph treats the List as a rulebook/bible/refrence guide, yet some people apparently think otherwise. The endgame linkshells who are so fed up with RMT that they contribute/follow the List do it for their own welfare. People listed as helping RMT can and have found linkshells who don't give a damn and are having a productive endgame existence.

That still doesn't explain where the proof is that these folks who are listed are involved in RMT.

Had you stated that this was a private forum, I might have agreed. However, you're right. This is a public forum, and anyone can post anything the please, as long as it falls within the guidelines presented by the administrators/moderators, which they and Cole have clearly come to an agreement upon, so regardless of yours or anyone elses opinion on whether that thread belongs or not, the moderators and Cole have come to a compromise, and it has been given the OK to have a place here.

And we have been invited to start a new thread (which we are currently posting in) for comments or criticisms on this List. What's the problem?

But as you state that you are allowed to speak your mind here because it's a public forum, Cole has the same freedom, and yet you would seem to want to have The List eliminated, thus silencing Cole from expressing his ideas here, and therefore contradicting your very belief of what a public forum is for.

Speaking one's mind and blackballing people with little to no real evidence are two entirely different matters. This isn't an issue of Free Speech.

As for players who don't frequent forums and they find themselves blackballed, I'm sure that not every other player is too stubborn to at least tell them why they are in the position they're in. People obviously are told, as there are players who have come to the forums, signed up, and their very first post was in The List, defending themselves, or attacking the accusers, so obviously word-of-mouth is directing them here one way or another.

What proof do you have that these people who posted on the forums were the individuals referenced in the list. It would be ridiculously simple for anyone to manufacture an account under the name of a character on Seraph and make any number of claims. All I've seen is that anyone at all who raises an objection is essentially shouted down by Cole in a poorly worded rant and threats of Admin interference. I've seen many reasonable arguments against the list, but I have yet to see a single reasonable argument for it.

As for this list being right or wrong.... there are signs that lead to both answers being correct. No system is flawless. Not a single one. Not even the ones that the creators of this fine game have made, and yet they are in place because they serve a purpose rather than just sit there and do nothing. Out of curiosity, I decided to just scope out some other forums from other servers and I noticed that some of them have Blacklist threads and in those I hardly see proof via screenshots. Just word of mouth, and even some are just one-line insults and accusations. I find it intriguing that The List gets singled out in these so-called witch hunts. Minus some variations in the reasoning behind them, all the lists are hardly different.

I'd love it if you'd link to these lists so the rest of us could see what you're referring to. Regardless, I sincerely doubt that any of them could be nearly as self-righteous as Cole's list.

The bottom line is that players, individually or collectively don't have any right to arbitrarily decide who and who isn't RMT. While I agree that SE could likely do more about the issue (as could every other MMO company out there), that doesn't mean that I have any right or responsiblity to take up that mantle.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Got a few things to take care of, but I'll provide said links when I return. But a few things to ponder: Unreliability does not equal automatic falsehood. Truth doesn't require evidence; it's only supported by it.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Truth may not require evidence, but truth and an accusation are two completely different things.

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Unreliability does not equal automatic falsehood.

No it just means that no one has any reason to trust the source.

Truth doesn't require evidence

It does when no one has any reason to trust the person spouting off.

[Thrasher]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

What I'm finding most disturbing is the Total lack of proof, research or respect for posting on the list. This whole thing reeks of people that had there fragile egos bruised or that have skeleton(warrior) or two in there closest.

You have a lot of freedom in this game you can choose how, where and who you play with. The same freedom that grants you the ability to keep a bazaar mule out side of Jeuno, is the same freedom that allows gil farmers to hunt the same nm day and night. So unfortunately unless the gilfarmers get caught doing something directly in violation of ToS the Gm's can do nothing.

But by Mpking a gilfarmer you are now the one in violation of the ToS, by playing McCarthy you are doing a disservice to the community at large by setting a president of witch hunting and victimization with out any due recourse.
In the end, resorting to gillfarmer tactics puts you at the same level as the gilfarmers.

What I find the most funny is the the people with the supposed Higher Morals are the people that are the people acting the most childish in this whole argument. Basically I'm only type of argument I keep hearing is.......

Bush Great President
Or Greatest President

This is a video game but behind every character there is a real person who cant always defend them selves. In short quit throwing your little hissie fits it just makes you look like children.........

And mildly disturbing at the same time

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Okay. First the examples of blacklist type threads:

Remora's Blacklist Thread

Alexander's "People to watch out for" Thread

Garuda's "Bad Players" Thread

Ifrit's Gillseller List Thread

I could go on, and yes, these are all Alla threads, as that is where I frequented before the unfortunate buy-out. I'm sure I could dig up some on KI if I tried hard enough. There were a few other lists, but most of them would be tame by your comparisons to Cole's list. Some of these have the posters listing who and what, but I haven't see any screenshots as proof, yet I see few disputes about their bad players. Point is that Cole isn't the only one who has a list for RMT and bad players 'n such. He may be the most dedicated to a post of this type, but he is in no way the only one doing it. And many of you are blaming just Cole. He started the list, he maintains the list, but he is hardly the only contributor to this list. As for the replies above:

Quote:
You say there are people who've had their endgame reputations ruined due to this list


I've said no such thing.

-- I'm sorry about that. My mistake. I mixed up one of your posts for ValisofValefor's.

So if there is no way of reliably verifying any of these names, then what is the point of having a list at all?

-- So due to a lack of being able to provide 100% proof, due to the only types of proof being susceptible to unreliability through one's word or graphical adjustments, it shouldn't exist at all? I've seen people provide screenshots of RMT admitting that they are RMT. That could be proof, but it could also have been photoshopped, and because of that, it lies on the 50/50 line. However, when that same RMT performs roughly all of the actions of all the suspected RMT, I'm more likely to lean towards the evidence being valid. Heck... I suppose all player warning type threads should be removed as well? No "player stole LS's Kraken Club" or "player stole gil funds and left" and so on, even though people may not have screenshots or even if they do, because the dialogue in it could have been faked?

[quote}And we have been invited to start a new thread (which we are currently posting in) for comments or criticisms on this List. What's the problem?[/quote]

-- There isn't a problem. Your interests in what goes on in the community are valid of course, but the moderators themselves have taken their own interests in The List, and it has been given the OK to stay where it's at. That's the point where the problem should have ended.

As for the people who sign up for a forum to come in and defend themselves, yes, it could be someone else faking the player. That's always a possibility. Obviously anything on the internet is possible, but that doesn't mean everything has to be discredited just because it can be faked. Doesn't mean it has to be true just because it's possible too.

In the end really, it depends on who you interact with on the server, what types of grievances the RMT has given you on our server, and what you hear through your linkshells and party members. If you aren't integrated into the Seraph server, you won't understand why the list is as it is nearly as much as those who are.

[Thrasher]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

You won't understand why the list is as it is nearly as much as those who are

I keep seeing people say this and frankly its getting old.

Unless you can post proof your server has the Worst RMT problems of all the servers this argument is completely invalid.

I could make a quick list of players that could be dealing with RMT's on my server but I cant prove they are so it would be nothing more than slander.

This is a different site then Allakhazam. Frankly the primary reason stopped reading those boards was due to posts like that (black list posts ect.), you could not have a opinion against the mainstream and Flame wars. (XD this is not a flame war)

[klvino]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

In the end, it may be little more than the pot calling the kettle black.

The people of Seraph are supposed to take the word of a complete stranger that their friend is a gilseller. There probably are gilsellers on Seraph, but who's to say that the people on the list are the only gilsellers, some of the people that contribute to the list may be gilsellers themselves and using the community to help squeeze out their competition to fetch a higher price for the gil they sell themselves. Do I have proof? No. Does anyone have proof that any of these people are gilsellers or not? Doesn't seem so. The final question is, "Who do you trust?"

And just a few side notes, after watching "rumored gilsellers", you'd learn that they don't get along and play nicely there's alot of heated, heavy, and mpking competition between them. Gee, sounds alot like the makers of "the list".

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Okay. First the examples of blacklist type threads:

Remora's Blacklist Thread

Alexander's "People to watch out for" Thread

Garuda's "Bad Players" Thread

Ifrit's Gillseller List Thread

I could go on, and yes, these are all Alla threads, as that is where I frequented before the unfortunate buy-out. I'm sure I could dig up some on KI if I tried hard enough. There were a few other lists, but most of them would be tame by your comparisons to Cole's list. Some of these have the posters listing who and what, but I haven't see any screenshots as proof, yet I see few disputes about their bad players. Point is that Cole isn't the only one who has a list for RMT and bad players 'n such. He may be the most dedicated to a post of this type, but he is in no way the only one doing it. And many of you are blaming just Cole. He started the list, he maintains the list, but he is hardly the only contributor to this list. As for the replies above:

As someone who doesn't frequent Alla or KI, those threads aren't really of much relevance to my interests in this community. But thanks for digging those up, regardless.

I'm sorry about that. My mistake. I mixed up one of your posts for ValisofValefor's.

No problem. It happens, especially when there are so many folks participating in a discussion like this.^^

So due to a lack of being able to provide 100% proof, due to the only types of proof being susceptible to unreliability through one's word or graphical adjustments, it shouldn't exist at all?

Exactly. Cole (and his contributors) aren't qualified to be judge jury and executioner. All that you have is speculation and the occasional admittance by a foolhardy RMT. You have no proof that they are breaking the TOS.

I've seen people provide screenshots of RMT admitting that they are RMT. That could be proof, but it could also have been photoshopped, and because of that, it lies on the 50/50 line.

Well, that's kind of a moot point since Cole seems unwilling to provide screenshots for his list, under the premise that he just doesn't want to have to to go through the tedious process of tracking them all down.

However, when that same RMT performs roughly all of the actions of all the suspected RMT, I'm more likely to lean towards the evidence being valid.

That's great. But once again, there doesn't appear to be any evidence for you to compare their activity to. Just speculation.

Heck... I suppose all player warning type threads should be removed as well? No "player stole LS's Kraken Club" or "player stole gil funds and left" and so on, even though people may not have screenshots or even if they do, because the dialogue in it could have been faked?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. But I always take threads of that nature with a grain of salt, because we're only hearing one side of the story.

There isn't a problem. Your interests in what goes on in the community are valid of course, but the moderators themselves have taken their own interests in The List, and it has been given the OK to stay where it's at. That's the point where the problem should have ended.

But these self-same moderators have invited us to share our comments and concerns about the thread, since it's clearly an issue that people are interested in discussing. So I still don't quite see where this thread and our discussion of the issue is somehow unwaranted.

Doesn't mean it has to be true just because it's possible too.

So, essentially the people on this list may not actually be RMT. I mean, it's possible, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

In the end really, it depends on who you interact with on the server, what types of grievances the RMT has given you on our server, and what you hear through your linkshells and party members. If you aren't integrated into the Seraph server, you won't understand why the list is as it is nearly as much as those who are.

As I've mentioned before, I played on Seraph for two years. It was the server I joined at NA launch, and the one where some of my oldest FFXI friends still play. While RMT is certainly an issue on any server, I didn't find the Seraph situation to be severe enough to warrant a witch hunt. I certainly didn't appreciate Cole's behavior on that server in this regard.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Well Thrasher, I never said our server had the worst RMT, but we tend to keep an eye on certain individuals while we play, mostly due to whatever interactions we have from them. We come to learn their behavior, their play pattern, and several other players' interactions and opinions of them.

So having SS of RMT admitting that they are RMT means that they aren't breaking the TOS, even though they just admitted that they perform actions that break the TOS? And regarding the claim that they aren't breaking the TOS, you could easily ask some HNM hunters who trained Weapons and Ghosts and Skeletons onto them while they camped Serket, or who ran Detectors upon a group while farming triggers in sky, or who did the Pld/Thf cure for hate, invincible, and flee with HNM 'till claim was lost and HNM stolen. It happened all too frequently before the anti-MPK update, and now the very same people who tried to MPK the legitimate players have attempted the same think up in sky, and have even taken to attempting to steal Kirin from groups who try to pop him.

And not everyone goes out and tries to MPK the RMT. I personally don't go for MPK, and won't attempt it. I will however, deny any of them any assistance of any kind. MPK isn't the only way to make a statement against RMT, though the way some here speak of the 'witch-hunts' and acting as bad as the RMT, seems that's all that is on their mind regarding our disagreements. RMT are ignored for a good bit in Jeuno while they shout for teleports, even when offering up to 10-15k for a Dem/Mea/Holla. They don't get raises in whatever areas when they die. No cures, no assistance for WSNMs, nothing. Sure they'll get help eventually, but it won't be from us.

Well, I think all that has been said is pretty much said. Continuing this any further would seem rather pointless, unless some new aspect of the debate pops up. Though I did come across this today, and if it is indeed valid, we mere players are not the only ones who are well-aware of who the RMT are, and if Japan has truly instructed the GMs to stay away from the RMT, then we're in a bit of a pickle, as they're given a good bit of freedom to do as they please. Hopefully whatever actions SE has planned coming up will be better than anything they've previously attempted.

Good debating with you Aelathir. You do provide some good point which I agree with, but at the same time it's those arguments that make me believe that the list is better there than not. Even for those who would take it with a grain of salt, it's something to look at for players to watch out for. And even still, it's a small percentage, a very small percentage of the community that is affected by this. Perhaps SE's next move will erase any need for The List. Until that time though, I'd like to have something to look at in regards of who I'll help and who I won't. So for now I think I'll cease debate, though if a good argumentative point is brought up, I'll be back. I'm almost always up for a good debate.

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Not going to take the time to read everything since what I did read was the same crap I have heard over and over again before. Here is the process that was used to make gil sellers part of the list:

1. This was all started before the MPK patch, the dark ages of MPK and trains, not FF11-lite crap we have now. The simple fact is, while they do not straight up say 'buy my gilz!!!!!' after the first dozen or so trains and mob steals, combined with complete lack of logging of for months on end, being constantly active doing nothing but camping NMs for gil and having no gear progression to show for it, and the occasional 'ni hao' (sp) thrown in, people at endgame know who the RMT are after a while.

2. I compiled the people and the LSs and tracked all their new cohorts, you'd be suprised how easy it is.

3. The PTing with sellers started when I was minding my own business and saw people leveling with a knowns GS in Terrigan on my way to Amemit. The people that have been added to the list for PTing with GS were all contacted by me in /t. ALL of them. They all know why I did it, and were given time to leave the PT. They were all given the location of the list should they want to reply to their addition, and told the repurcussions of what could happen if they continued to PT with the RMTs (possible blackballing).




Now the problems that you have with me are best summed up as follows:

1. You have no proof they are RMT.

2. Why should they/we listen to you?

3. The PTing with sellers is going too far.

4. I want proof of everyone on the list.

To these i say:

1. This complaint is made from people who are not endgame from what people's sigs and info say. Endgame people who have been around HNM/NMs for the better part of 2 years, regardless of server know who a great deal of RMT are. Don't believe me? Go ask them. They do not have a flashing sign saying 'I sell gil!', but use some common sense. People who do nothing but move from 1 NM camp to another, for years without logging out, and have absolutely no gear progression, and will even MPK when they can...

They are RMT, get over your fixation on '100%' proof. Yes, you can say there is reasonable doubt, but this is not a court, and OJ was found to have reasonable doubt too.


2. I don't care if they or you listen to me. I give them the ramifications of what is going to happen when I talk to them. They are all given the chance to come and defend themselves, some did on allak, openly admitting to what they did and showing no remorse. They were promptly lambasted by everyone.


3. Maybe, maybe it is going to far. That is your opinion. I personally think it is going almost far enough. If I could post the list in the middle of Jeuno for everyone to see, in english and japanese, I would. That is what I call going far enough. Remember that price jump in December next time you think I am going too far.

4. You want proof for people who are RMTs? You don't trust myself and the other ppl from Seraph who know the truth and post here? PM me for a WP. I'll get you on Seraph and will give you leaders of as many HNMLSs as I can find. You can ask them if the people/LSs are RMT, then come and admit to me I was right and you were wrong.

You want proof for all PTers with RMT? All that have been added since the ffxionline move have screenshots posted in the thread itself from at the time they were reported. The people from the allakhazam thread were all reported as day/time/location and with what RMT they were with, some have screenshots, some do not. Some responded back, some did not.






Lastly, I want to put this bluntly. If you are not from Seraph, you don't have a right to complain. If you are not in a position to actively compete with RMT, you don't have a right to complain. If you don't PM me for a WP to get on Seraph and talk to people, you don't have a right to complain.


I believe that takes care of all of you complainers, have a nice day.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Its a public forum. Anyone can chime in.

I would like to know though, if you are a stranger /t me "He's a gilseller in your party" why should I believe you instead of him?

[RunningDemon]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I explain to them about the list at the time I contact them. Most of the time the response is 'i don't care, i just want exp'. Pretty much everyone can be put into 2 categories once I contact them, A. The ones who don't care and just want exp, and love to tell me so, and B. Those who break and tell me thanks for informing them.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Not going to take the time to read everything since what I did read was the same crap I have heard over and over again before. Here is the process that was used to make gil sellers part of the list:

Meaning, you're not smart enough to provide a counterpoint, so you'll just grandly dismiss everything before you because you're blinded by your own self-righteousness, right?

1. This was all started before the MPK patch, the dark ages of MPK and trains, not FF11-lite crap we have now. The simple fact is, while they do not straight up say 'buy my gilz!!!!!' after the first dozen or so trains and mob steals, combined with complete lack of logging of for months on end, being constantly active doing nothing but camping NMs for gil and having no gear progression to show for it, and the occasional 'ni hao' (sp) thrown in, people at endgame know who the RMT are after a while.

They don't know. They suspect. You don't know. You suspect. Meanwhile, you MPK them and those who party with them like a petulant child, because how dare they not listen to you! Pure hubris.

2. I compiled the people and the LSs and tracked all their new cohorts, you'd be suprised how easy it is.

If it's so easy, you should go get a job at SE. You'll be a savior!

3. The PTing with sellers started when I was minding my own business and saw people leveling with a knowns GS in Terrigan on my way to Amemit. The people that have been added to the list for PTing with GS were all contacted by me in /t. ALL of them. They all know why I did it, and were given time to leave the PT. They were all given the location of the list should they want to reply to their addition, and told the repurcussions of what could happen if they continued to PT with the RMTs (possible blackballing).

So, some folks didn't listen to the great Cole, and were MPK'd. Well, when you put it that way, it's clear that you were in the right. I mean, who wouldn't believe some random guy who came up and said he'd MPK you for not leaving your party, right?

Now the problems that you have with me are best summed up as follows:

1. You have no proof they are RMT.

No, the problem is that YOU don't have any proof.

2. Why should they/we listen to you?

A valid question. You're just some random guy who has an unusually high opinion of himself.

3. The PTing with sellers is going too far.

Since you have no proof of either who is RMT or who is knowingly partying with RMT, yes, having them on a list of any kind is ridiculous.

4. I want proof of everyone on the list.

Considering that was one of the conditions of the list being allowed to exist here at all, yes. You keep saying you have it, but you have yet to produce any of it.

To these i say:
1. This complaint is made from people who are not endgame from what people's sigs and info say. Endgame people who have been around HNM/NMs for the better part of 2 years, regardless of server know who a great deal of RMT are. Don't believe me? Go ask them. They do not have a flashing sign saying 'I sell gil!', but use some common sense. People who do nothing but move from 1 NM camp to another, for years without logging out, and have absolutely no gear progression, and will even MPK when they can...

Several of the folks who have voiced concern with your methods have been endgame players for a long time. Many of them have been playing as long or longer than you have. I happen to know several endgame players on Seraph who know you very well, and do not agree with you, your list or your methods at all.

They are RMT, get over your fixation on '100%' proof. Yes, you can say there is reasonable doubt, but this is not a court, and OJ was found to have reasonable doubt too.

They aren't RMT until you have 100% proof. They are just a list of folks that you think are RMT. That's what proof is, genius. Guilty until proven innocent isn't how things work.

2. I don't care if they or you listen to me. I give them the ramifications of what is going to happen when I talk to them. They are all given the chance to come and defend themselves, some did on allak, openly admitting to what they did and showing no remorse. They were promptly lambasted by everyone.

You are not the judge jury and executioner, Cole. You are just another player like them. For you to even think that you have any kind of justification for this is laughable and quite frankly, more than a little bit sad.

3. Maybe, maybe it is going to far. That is your opinion. I personally think it is going almost far enough. If I could post the list in the middle of Jeuno for everyone to see, in english and japanese, I would. That is what I call going far enough. Remember that price jump in December next time you think I am going too far.

So what if you could post the list in Jeuno? It would be your word against theirs. You are not an SE employee. This is not your concern. You are overstepping your boundaries and seem unable to acknowledge that this system is deeply flawed.

4. You want proof for people who are RMTs? You don't trust myself and the other ppl from Seraph who know the truth and post here? PM me for a WP. I'll get you on Seraph and will give you leaders of as many HNMLSs as I can find. You can ask them if the people/LSs are RMT, then come and admit to me I was right and you were wrong.

No, I don't trust you. No I don't trust your contributors. I played on Seraph for a long time (and have many friends that still do), and from what I've seen of you and your methods, I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you. Your behavior in this this thread, and your previous list threads isn't doing you any favors in that regard either.

You want proof for all PTers with RMT? All that have been added since the ffxionline move have screenshots posted in the thread itself from at the time they were reported. The people from the allakhazam thread were all reported as day/time/location and with what RMT they were with, some have screenshots, some do not. Some responded back, some did not.

If you don't have screenshotted proof, then they shouldn't be on the list. Period. Especially for those in the "partied with RMT" section. That's the worst of all, because it relies on hearsay and word of mouth, and also requires that the individual listed would 1.) Know about your list, 2.) Trust you to steer them right.

Lastly, I want to put this bluntly. If you are not from Seraph, you don't have a right to complain. If you are not in a position to actively compete with RMT, you don't have a right to complain. If you don't PM me for a WP to get on Seraph and talk to people, you don't have a right to complain.

We have every right. What you don't have is a right to tell us what we can and cannot complain about. The audacity involved in even assuming that is laughable.

I believe that takes care of all of you complainers, have a nice day.

Not really. But thanks for playing!