Greivances with "The List"

[Feba]

I don't see why Seraph things they're so special. Do you think you're the only server with gilsellers? Everyone who plays FFXI knows "What's going on".


Difference is, we aren't blind.

[Feba]

Re: The List

If everyone took it to PMs, then he'd just claim there's no complaints on his thread, if anyone did complain.


I'm sorry if you don't like it, but if I want to talk about a topic on a topic, I will. If you don't want me to reply, lock or delete the thread.

If PiNG allows RD to use the forum for this, that's his choice, and it's my choice to say it's bad.

[Taskmage]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

This thread was split from this one concerning the ethics and validity of that thread. If anyone would like to voice an opinion on the subject, please do so in this thread and not the other.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

My main concern with a list of that sort (and as a former Seraphian, I'm rather familiar with Cole and his methods), is that there isn't any sort of independent judgement going on. RunningDemon is the judge jury and in many cases executioner of these individuals (although I don't know how much luck he's had MPKing them in light of recent changes). The idea that he would come along and tell some random person that they are grouped with gilsellers and expect this person to take him at his word and disband under fear of MPK is patently ridiculous.

Not everyone frequents forums like this or Alla. Not everyone is going to know where to find the names of "notorious" gilsellers and gilselling linkshells. I played on that server for two years, and I couldn't name more than a handful of them. I mind my own business and don't get worked up about what they may or may not be doing to the in-game economy. I agree that it's a problem, but it's not a problem that we as players have any power to resolve. I play this game for entertainment value and interaction with friends. Not to seek out those who are breaking the rules and punish them like some sort of online vigilante. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I've read the entire original thread at Alla, and I've seen little to no screenshot evidence that proves that people are gilsellers, or willing to help gilsellers get things done. Heck, even the people who "admitted" that they were willing to party with or help gilsellers were using a name on an internet messageboard. There is no way to prove that this individual in game was even the same person posting. It's ridiculous to think that this system of labeling people who "everyone knows" are gilsellers or friends of gilsellers is anything even close to a worthwhile venture.

[Raydeus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'll say it again since my post in that thread got deleted.

Witch hunts without solid proof are as bad (or even worst come to think of it) than RMT itself.

I don't know who they think they are, but listing people because "they heard" or because "everyone knows" makes them the same as the people who sell gil because "everyone is doing it" or because "it's their job".

Unless solid proof is presented against someone listing shouldn't be allowed. And I wonder who will judge what solid proof is, because they will never take the time to really document an acusation.

SE on the other hand takes the time to investigate, and account banning is the result of that investigation. They have the resources and the authority unlike the "list people". Really, that list is just the Vana's version of mob justice, with the big marking iron included.

I'm just glad I'm not that server, and I'm also glad most people is more civilized like that, a 200 years old version of justice isn't the solution to RMT problems.

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I'll say it again since my post in that thread got deleted.

Witch hunts without solid proof are as bad (or even worst come to think of it) than RMT itself.

Definitely worse. no matter what 'proof' those making a claim think they have they do not know. They end up being used to create and then hold some illusion of power on the part of the contributors to any list like it. On a whim they can destroy everything you've worked for with the single phrase 'they are or they have associated with known gil sellers,' and no amount of protesting it would change the decision of a few 'all-knowing' players.

It's just McCarthyism again.

[Raydeus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

My only concern with a list of that sort (and as a former Seraphian, I'm rather familiar with Cole and his methods), is that there isn't any sort of independent judgement going on. RunningDemon is the judge jury and in many cases executioner of these individuals (although I don't know how much luck he's had MPKing them in light of recent changes). The idea that he would come along and tell some random person that they are grouped with gilsellers and expect this person to take him at his word and disband under fear of MPK is patently ridiculous.

That's one of my biggest concerns about this matter.

If some people I don't know sent me a tell claiming that I'm in a xp/quest party with RMT, and giving me a "warning" I wouldn't take it seriously. What tells me they aren't just another party trying to take our camp or just trying to play me a joke? What proof can they offer in game to make someone believe them, "everyone knows"?

And why would I listen to them? Who tells me they have the authority and resources to judge who's RMT (or colaborates with) or not?

There are way too many holes in their system for it to have the slightest validity.


Also worth noticing is the part of their rules where they say:

Removal from List:
Admit what you did and that it was wrong.


Who exactly does he think he is that people has to admit anything to him? That's completely insane.

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

He has yet to provide any concrete proof. He's like this one assistant I had who said she was right on top of the projects that she was working on, and then when asked for proof, she made a big deal about how it would take forever to get it all together, but that she'd stop what she was doing right then to get it done since I was so inconsiderate as to ask for it.

Then she didn't, and hoped I forgot about it.

[Amovorite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Sadly, you're putting this in a scope far larger than it really is. The List isn't a rulebook. It's not commandments, nor is it law. It is a guideline for myself and many others like me who are sick and tired of having to deal with the RMT on our server, and who share a bit of disgust for other players who freely assist these scum in advancing further to make our playing experiences worse. As many Linkshells as there are that do not want any association with RMT or those who assist them, there are just as many, if not more other shells who don't give a damn about who's who, and such players still have no problems advancing in the game. This list is a guideline for those who A) Don't want to unknowingly assist RMT and B) Don't want to help people who help RMT. People who help the RMT can still advance just fine in the game. They just won't do it with the people who care about what goes on in the server in which they play.

Obviously we're aware that there are RMT on other servers. To even entertain the idea that there aren't is just plain foolish, just as it is to assume that we think that way. Now I don't know what your personal stake is in this whole little debate, but you obviously feel special enough to take it upon yourself to grab a pedestal and start a crusade against RD. Regardless of what you feel about his List, it's going to stay, and it's going to be available to those who wish to make use of it. Everyone else can very easily ignore it by not clicking on it, and those on Seraph can simply avoid it by not assisting the RMT. It's not all that hard to do.

And you're wrong. The difference isn't that you aren't blind; the difference is that we are taking a stand.



Edit: Some notes on the whole 'witch hunt' excuse:

Some of you are making it out that RD will simply take anyone he doesn't like and just tag them onto the list as people who party with RMT. Sadly for you, if that were truly the case, that particular list would be a good bit larger than it currently is. As it is, I've seen very few of those accused with freely partying with RMT coming on to deny their accusation, and one might think that if their endgame experience was truly ruined and they committed no wrong, they'd stop by and dispute such a claim. Quite frankly, this portion if the list would probably be a lot larger if the list of RMT weren't available, as so much grief has been given to the RMT that they've mostly just taken to leveling with themselves and having their higher leveled coworkers just powerlevel the crap out of them. RMT has been forced to band together so heavily on the server that there are fewer occurrences of legitimate players (mostly post 50's to endgame) unknowingly assisting them. Hardly matters pre-50 anyway, as I had stated, the RMT just powerlevel small groups of their own up to wherever they need to be.

[Aeolus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

TBH, its their server, no problem there and yes I don't see why we need to post there but also I don't see the problem if we do. Like feba said, its a public forum. I dont think there was any need to gang up on Runningdemon for proof tho. Yes, its wrong not to provide proof as some ppl maybe innoccent and unable to defend themselves here, so I think TGM had every right to say what she did. It just got a bit out of hand over that one thing tho right? No need to carry on this nonsense if its been sorted no? Unless ppl are still causing trouble?

[Mhurron]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

I dont think there was any need to gang up on Runningdemon for proof tho. Yes, its wrong not to provide proof as some ppl maybe innoccent and unable to defend themselves here

Why not, those actively posting to that list are attempting to set themselves as the most important people on the server, they are trying to raise themselves to the point of being the law on that server. Heaven forbid someone gets on their bad side.

And they do it by saying they have 'mountains off proof' that they are not going to show anyone.

They're going to 'warn' others that they are partying with 'known gil sellers' and expect those people to leave that party right then on nothing but the say so of whoever decided someone in that party was engaging in RMT. If you don't comply, you will also be added to the list of those aiding and abetting and will be shunned as well.

[ValisOfValefor]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

The thing is, about "The List" is that things like that get innocent people blackmailed from society.

I have three friends in particular who ive known for 7 years. Because of little rumors without proof theyve been blackmailed, called gilsellers, and been removed from what little society of this game there is. I do not think thats justice.

They were on a good amount of the day, and had worked hard, and had some of the best gear this game had to offer at the time. Well that got ruined by rumors that they had been working with RMT, yet there was no absolute proof. With such ignorance in this world, people believe nearly anything you put into their minds with or without proof.

I knew these people, they hated cheating as much as the rest of us. Yet becuase of it, and all the harrasment they gave up on this game. I mean you sure can't blackmail half of Vana'diel to get away from stuff like people harrasing you now can you.

Feba seems like he's had people try doing this sort of thing to him too.

TGM seems like she's had experience in the matter also.

The thing is, for a game like this, proof is hard to come by, and what do you know about the poster's integrity?

Who knows if evidence was changed because he wanted to get back at people who stole his pop (C'mon people you have just as much of a chance as everyone else, as long as their not cheating, and your paying attention)

I believe that there should not be any list, you and yourself alone should decide who you play with, but sometimes i think the accusers are worse than the accused.

[Aeolus]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Ok but TGM was doing that, shes a mod. Dont see the need for lots of people to post as well, that just turns the topic into a flame war or spam. Its her job to handle it, isnt it?

[Inferknite]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Happy to see Seraph is getting some drama points ^^

[Murphie]

Re: Greivances with "The List"

Sadly, you're putting this in a scope far larger than it really is. The List isn't a rulebook. It's not commandments, nor is it law. It is a guideline for myself and many others like me who are sick and tired of having to deal with the RMT on our server, and who share a bit of disgust for other players who freely assist these scum in advancing further to make our playing experiences worse.

But all they have is your word that the people they are assisting are gilsellers. If some stranger came up to me and told me that I was partied with gilsellers, what reason would I have to believe them?

As many Linkshells as there are that do not want any association with RMT or those who assist them, there are just as many, if not more other shells who don't give a damn about who's who, and such players still have no problems advancing in the game. This list is a guideline for those who A) Don't want to unknowingly assist RMT and B) Don't want to help people who help RMT. People who help the RMT can still advance just fine in the game. They just won't do it with the people who care about what goes on in the server in which they play.

But what evidence do you have besides these names on a list that these people are either RMT or willing to support them. You keep dodging the fact that you have no proof besides word of mouth, which is hardly reliable. I know several endgame players on Seraph who wouldn't recognize a fraction of the names on this list. But I can name at least half a dozen of them that know Cole's name and don't have a very high opinion of him or his methods. Why should they take his word that these people are all part of the RMT problem?

Obviously we're aware that there are RMT on other servers. To even entertain the idea that there aren't is just plain foolish, just as it is to assume that we think that way. Now I don't know what your personal stake is in this whole little debate, but you obviously feel special enough to take it upon yourself to grab a pedestal and start a crusade against RD. Regardless of what you feel about his List, it's going to stay, and it's going to be available to those who wish to make use of it. Everyone else can very easily ignore it by not clicking on it, and those on Seraph can simply avoid it by not assisting the RMT. It's not all that hard to do.

This is a public forum, and I don't think it has any place here. If he wants to post a list of who he thinks are RMT, he should post it on his own server space. As a member of this community, I have an interest in what sort of behavior we allow here. As such, I'll speak my mind any time I choose about what I think should or shouldn't be here. That's how public forurms work.

And you're wrong. The difference isn't that you aren't blind; the difference is that we are taking a stand.

But that doesn't mean you're doing the right thing.

Edit: Some notes on the whole 'witch hunt' excuse:

Some of you are making it out that RD will simply take anyone he doesn't like and just tag them onto the list as people who party with RMT. Sadly for you, if that were truly the case, that particular list would be a good bit larger than it currently is. As it is, I've seen very few of those accused with freely partying with RMT coming on to deny their accusation, and one might think that if their endgame experience was truly ruined and they committed no wrong, they'd stop by and dispute such a claim. Quite frankly, this portion if the list would probably be a lot larger if the list of RMT weren't available, as so much grief has been given to the RMT that they've mostly just taken to leveling with themselves and having their higher leveled coworkers just powerlevel the crap out of them. RMT has been forced to band together so heavily on the server that there are fewer occurrences of legitimate players (mostly post 50's to endgame) unknowingly assisting them. Hardly matters pre-50 anyway, as I had stated, the RMT just powerlevel small groups of their own up to wherever they need to be.

As has been pointed out several times, most players don't frequent forums like this. I'm sure the majority of the people on the list don't even realize that they are on it. How on earth can you expect people to defend themselves if they don't even know that they have been accused? It's a flawed system. I'm not sure why so many of you seem dead set on defending it.